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Thread: R-CTS1843 in India

  1. #1
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    R-CTS1843 in India

    Hey guys,

    My maternal Uncle recieved his 23andMe results today. His Y-DNA assignment is R-CTS1843. I've seen that this is a subclade of R-Z2103, a rare Indo-Iranian branch of R-M269 which is seen quite a lot in the Near East. I believe R-Z2103 makes up almost all of the R-M269 seen in Iranians (descendants of Indo-Iranians), although it's much rarer in Indo-Aryans (also descendants of Indo-Iranians), who are dominated by R1a-Z93.

    From data me and others have collected on paternal haplogroups in my ethnoreligious group (Punjabi Jatt Sikh's), R1a-Z93 accounts for around 40% of all men in this group, whereas R1b-Z2103 is almost nonexistant here - there are only two R1b Jatts I've seen, and one of them is my maternal uncle. Some Brahmins have R1b, and Rajasthani Lambani's (37%!), Tajik Pamiris and Pathans have it too.

    I'm no expert on R1b myself. I'm hoping an actual expert can enlighten me on exactly how common this lineage is in India?

    P.S: Yes, I am getting him a YSEQ test down the line
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 01-30-2019 at 04:34 PM.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (possibly R1a-Z93 > L657 > Y7)

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    Hey guys,

    My maternal Uncle recieved his 23andMe results today. His Y-DNA assignment is R-CTS1843. I've seen that this is a subclade of R-Z2103, a rare Indo-Iranian branch of R-M269 which is seen quite a lot in the Near East. I believe R-Z2103 makes up almost all of the R-M269 seen in Iranians (descendants of Indo-Iranians), although it's much rarer in Indo-Aryans (also descendants of Indo-Iranians), who are dominated by R1a-Z93.

    From data me and others have collected on paternal haplogroups in my ethnoreligious group (Punjabi Jatt Sikh's), R1a-Z93 accounts for around 40% of all men in this group, whereas R1b-Z2103 is practically nonexistant here.

    I'm no expert on R1b myself. I'm hoping an actual expert can enlighten me on exactly how common this lineage is in India?

    P.S: Yes, I am getting him a YSEQ test down the line
    CTS1843 is another name for Z2109. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>Z2106>Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
    Z2103 is rare on the subcontinent, but it keeps showing up. Usually with a very distant time to most recent common ancestor to other Z2103 haplotypes elsewhere.
    How deeply do you plan on testing your uncle?
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    CTS1843 is another name for Z2109. R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2105>Z2106>Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/
    Z2103 is rare on the subcontinent, but it keeps showing up. Usually with a very distant time to most recent common ancestor to other Z2103 haplotypes elsewhere.
    How deeply do you plan on testing your uncle?
    I might get a YSEQ test for now.

    If Y-DNA sequencing gets cheaper and better, I'll do that in the future too! I also wish to sequence my fathers mtDNA too.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (possibly R1a-Z93 > L657 > Y7)

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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    I might get a YSEQ test for now.

    If Y-DNA sequencing gets cheaper and better, I'll do that in the future too! I also wish to sequence my fathers mtDNA too.
    There is one Gujarati on the YFull tree - NA20866.
    I believe most subcontinental R1bs are on the Z2103 branch. M73 and L51 are less frequent. V88 is absent. But some very deep R1b branching is also present.

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  9. #5
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    Maybe your ancestry is from the Mughal period.
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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Maybe your ancestry is from the Mughal period.
    I appreciate your input, but thats extremely unlikely. Sikhs and Mughals had a lot of bad blood with each other so it's a given they didn't mix.

    It's most likely a much more ancient line, connected to Steppe migrations alongside R1a-Z93.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (possibly R1a-Z93 > L657 > Y7)

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    I appreciate your input, but thats extremely unlikely. Sikhs and Mughals had a lot of bad blood with each other so it's a given they didn't mix.

    It's most likely a much more ancient line, connected to Steppe migrations alongside R1a-Z93.
    Or potentially even earlier than Z93.
    We had R1b reported in both Iron Age (IA) Swat and at Dara i Kur Afghanistan.
    At Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan and at Darra i Kur 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

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  14. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Or potentially even earlier than Z93.
    We had R1b reported in both Iron Age (IA) Swat and at Dara i Kur Afghanistan.
    At Loebanr_IA 1000-800 BCE Pakistan and at Darra i Kur 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan
    So could this possibly be a BMAC lineage? Or later than that?
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (possibly R1a-Z93 > L657 > Y7)

  15. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbee2010 View Post
    So could this possibly be a BMAC lineage? Or later than that?
    The Darr-i-Kur sample is much earlier than BMAC (2300–1700 BC) so earlier is possible too. In the Yamna timeframe.

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  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The Darr-i-Kur sample is much earlier than BMAC (23001700 BC) so earlier is possible too. In the Yamna timeframe.
    I know this is not quite related to the thread here but do you think my R2a-Y1376 is also a possible BMAC line?

    It seems to have a NW-biased distribution in South Asia (the most of many L295- subclade of R2a-Y8766). L295- subclades of R2a are mainly seen (according to FTDNA) in upper (mostly Hindu) castes (i.e. 2 North Indian Rajputs, 2 NI Vaniyas, a Punjabi Brahmin and a Punjabi Khatri), so this suggest's that this may be a rare Indo-Aryan branch of R2a?

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y1376

    R2a was absolutely non-existent in the IE homeland where R1a and R1b came from. I know with 95%+ certainty that R2a-Y8766 was a Zagros line, so I'm guessing my line perhaps went from the Zagros to the BMAC region, and then Proto-IA's picked it up when they mixed with the locals? Thats my guess on how IA's would've picked up my line (if they did pick it up from there). How do the TMRCA values line up in your opinion?

    My line seems to have a similar distribution to L-M357 and R1a-Y7 albeit much rarer.

    I would appreciate your expertise as my Y-DNA is an absolute enigma to me. At least I have more of an idea where my uncle got his R1b from.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (possibly R1a-Z93 > L657 > Y7)

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