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Thread: Brahmin Genetics

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    I have noticed something, the two other Potohari Brahmans I have found on Gedmatch, and have got their y haplogroups confirmed, are both R1a. However whether they are the Indo-Aryan l657, its not certain, including myself. We could very well be a population distinct from the normal Hindi Heartland Brahmins. Even Kashmiri Pandits, who appear to be my close autosomal matches, are quite distinct, culturally as well as in phynotype, and then they appear to have a great deal of y lineage diversity, and I know I am reckoning so in the absence of a decent sample for Potohari Brahmans. The closest that Potohari Brahmans come to another Brahman community, is the Jammu Dogra Brahmans. And on nmonte, I find I have quite a few Gujrati Brahmans as top matches.
    Looks like there is some much Ghala mala here. Original Brahmins from Punjab may have been pushed around much to north and south?

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I added a second section about what Panini wrote in the Ashtadhyayi in the 6-4th C BC. Perhaps this can be considered more reliable.
    I don't think Panini is earlier than the 350-300BC period.
    I agree though that the Brahman/Indic center from the Brahman* point of view at that time was in the modern UP area.

    *Aryavart Brahmans didn't define themselves geographically but the region was considered central by other Brahmans, the Magadh Brahmans were Prachya, the Punjab Brahmans Udichya. From the Buddhist point of view Magadh was madhyades.

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  4. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I don't think Panini is earlier than the 350-300BC period.
    I agree though that the Brahman/Indic center from the Brahman* point of view at that time was in the modern UP area.

    *Aryavart Brahmans didn't define themselves geographically but the region was considered central by other Brahmans, the Magadh Brahmans were Prachya, the Punjab Brahmans Udichya. From the Buddhist point of view Magadh was madhyades.
    It would have to be earlier as his world was most definitely not influenced by Buddhism yet and this area becomes a major center for it from 400 BC onwards, I think the 550-500 BC date most scholars use is the correct one, with Ashtadhyayi written in 500 BC, because Katyayana is dated to the period you mentioned and his work builds on Panini's , so its not possible they lived in the same time as he had acquired a sage/maharishi status by this time.

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  6. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    It would have to be earlier as his world was most definitely not influenced by Buddhism yet and this area becomes a major center for it from 400 BC onwards, I think the 550-500 BC date most scholars use is the correct one, with Ashtadhyayi written in 500 BC, because Katyayana is dated to the period you mentioned and his work builds on Panini's , so its not possible they lived in the same time as he had acquired a sage/maharishi status by this time.
    His world maybe, though he does know them as he mentions parasarino bhikshava*. These were Baudh/Jina bhikshus. The parasaris (followers of the parasarya's bhikshusutra) remained a derided set (by brahmans) until much later. Bana pandit calls them folk who perform the chaitya-vandana (stupa worship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bJwEO4wR0g ) who wore robes and didn't like brahmans ("rare to find a Parasari monk who does not hate a Brahman").

    *Eg. The Baudha monk Divakarmitr was a Parasari Bhikshu.

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  8. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    His world maybe, though he does know them as he mentions parasarino bhikshava*. These were Baudh/Jina bhikshus. The parasaris (followers of the parasarya's bhikshusutra) remained a derided set (by brahmans) until much later. Bana pandit calls them folk who perform the chaitya-vandana (stupa worship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bJwEO4wR0g ) who wore robes and didn't like brahmans ("rare to find a Parasari monk who does not hate a Brahman").

    *Eg. The Baudha monk Divakarmitr was a Parasari Bhikshu.
    In addition to the above, there is the work unadi-sutra which is supposed to have been authored by Panini (it is mentioned by Panini). It has words like dinar, jina, and stupa. Dinar is especially problematic since it thought that it derives from Roman denarius. Therefore it is considered to have been added on post-Panini.

    To be fair the etymology of this unadi-sutra dinar is not given from denarius but from din + ari (to be given to the poor).

    FWIW, as far as Katyayana goes, Indic tradition considers him contemporaneous with Panini.

    1. "Somadevabhatta of Kashmir collected the popular stories current in his time, and published them towards
    the beginning of the twelfth century under the title of Katha- sarit-sagara, the Ocean of the Rivers of Stories. Here we read that Katyayana Vararuchi, being cursed by the wife of Siva, was born at KauSambl, the capital of Vatsa. He was a boy of great talent, and extraordinary powers of memory. He was able to repeat to his mother an entire play, after hearing it once at the theatre; and before he was even initiated he was able to repeat the Pratiakhya which he had heard from Vyali. He was afterwards the pupil of Varsha, became proficient in all sacred knowledge, and actually defeated Panini in a grammatical con-troversy. By the interference of Siva, however, the final victory fell to Panini. Katyayana had to appease the anger of Siva, became himself a student of Panini’s Grammar, and completed and corrected it. He afterwards is said to have become minister of King Nanda and his mysterious successor Yogananda at Pataliputra ... We know that Katyayana completed and corrected Panini’s Grammar, such as we now possess it. 92 His Varttikas are sup-plementary rules, which show a more extensive and accurate knowledge of Sanskrit than even the work of Panini. The story of the contest between them was most likely intended as a mythical way of explaining this fact."

    2. "648. According to various traditional accounts the grammarian Panini lived in the time of the Magadhan emperor Mahapadma Nanda ... "648 https://books.google.com/books?id=qV42xSKDftUC&pg=PA106

    But unfortunately dating and historicity are not often reliable in Indic tradition.

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