Brahmin Genetics

[Kulin]

So I just ran the f3 calculation of the form f3(South Asian, Steppe; Chimp.REF), with Steppe as Yamnaya and then Botai. The f3 tells us how close the populations are genetically.

You can see that for Yamnaya, Ror, Pathan and Kalash are closest, followed by Jatt in 4th position. But for Botai, Jatt is the closest.

The ethnonym Jatt and Getae etc these are pre-Aryan so it is likely the Jatts had this Central Asian connection but it is not related to Yamnaya or Steppe MLBA, but Botai and similar cultures.

	Russia_EBA_Yamnaya_Samara		Kazakhstan_Botai.SG
Ror	225.180172	Jatt	224.236276
Kalash	224.850646	Kalash	223.934442
Pathan	224.476636	Ror	223.873757
Jatt	224.395778	Burusho	223.524471
Balochi	223.796471	Pathan	223.148042
Burusho	223.648028	GujaratiA	223.085037
GujaratiA	223.6379	UBR.SG	222.674328
GujaratiB	223.204934	GujaratiB	222.658732
UBR.SG	222.320355	GujaratiD	221.904322
Guj-Muslim	221.707925	Balochi	221.894449
GujaratiD	221.628776	Guj-Muslim	219.833526

Most of us here are amateurs in regards to f3 and such. You may want to contact the following youtuber , who was a former user of the forum with extensive knowledge in that field.

[Kapisa]

The first column is how close each one is to Yamnaya, the second column is how close it is to Botai. The bigger the number the closer they are, and I put them in order, highest to lowest.

"Russia_EBA_Yamnaya_Samara Jatt 224.395778, second column Kazakhstan_Botai.SG Jatt 224.236276" means f3(Jatt, Yamnaya; Chimp) = 224.39577, f3(Jatt, Botai; Chimp.REF) = 224.23627. The bigger the number the closer they are. So Botai is closest to Jatt while Yamnaya is closest to Ror.

Did u compute z scores for these?

[Jatt1]

The first column is how close each one is to Yamnaya, the second column is how close it is to Botai. The bigger the number the closer they are, and I put them in order, highest to lowest.

"Russia_EBA_Yamnaya_Samara Jatt 224.395778, second column Kazakhstan_Botai.SG Jatt 224.236276" means f3(Jatt, Yamnaya; Chimp) = 224.39577, f3(Jatt, Botai; Chimp.REF) = 224.23627. The bigger the number the closer they are. So Botai is closest to Jatt while Yamnaya is closest to Ror.

Aren't Jatt still closer to Yamnaya Samara than to Botai? I am sure there were many other cultures not too far away from those two, why check their genetic relationship to Yamnaya and Botai only?

[Koonger]

The first column is how close each one is to Yamnaya, the second column is how close it is to Botai. The bigger the number the closer they are, and I put them in order, highest to lowest.

"Russia_EBA_Yamnaya_Samara Jatt 224.395778, second column Kazakhstan_Botai.SG Jatt 224.236276" means f3(Jatt, Yamnaya; Chimp) = 224.39577, f3(Jatt, Botai; Chimp.REF) = 224.23627. The bigger the number the closer they are. So Botai is closest to Jatt while Yamnaya is closest to Ror.

What jatts samples you are taking in consideration? Your stuff is at very preliminary stage, you are looking in hurry in passing judgement, pre Aryan ,aryan, closeness etc

[laltota]

The first column is how close each one is to Yamnaya, the second column is how close it is to Botai. The bigger the number the closer they are, and I put them in order, highest to lowest.

"Russia_EBA_Yamnaya_Samara Jatt 224.395778, second column Kazakhstan_Botai.SG Jatt 224.236276" means f3(Jatt, Yamnaya; Chimp) = 224.39577, f3(Jatt, Botai; Chimp.REF) = 224.23627. The bigger the number the closer they are. So Botai is closest to Jatt while Yamnaya is closest to Ror.

From which study are these samples (Jatt, Ror, Burusho etc) ?

[Jatt1]

Samples are from the Reich and Pathak datasets. I dont know if the Jatt sample is representative of all Jatts but it looks about right.

In HarrappaDNA Gujarati Muslim is closest to Jatt out of these groups and that is also consistent with f3 (from these datasets) from my other thread.

There is also problem with data in some studies, in one of them there are samples from Bathinda which were not Jatt samples at all. Sapporo and others here can tell you more about it. Also you need to place Muslim, Sikh and Hindu jatts into different categories as they have mixed with different castes to a different degree, I believe.

[Jatt1]

Yeah, I know, but we dont have enough data atm so this is just preliminary. There will be differences in the samples to some extent.

However, what's interesting is my own Gujarati-Muslim results in Harrappa


# Population (source) Distance
1 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 4.12
2 up-muslim (harappa) 6.24
3 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 8.3

Closest to UP Muslim and then Jatt. This is consistent with the data from the Pathak dataset, where the Jatt is the closest match for Gujarati Muslim. So there does seem to be consistency in the samples between Harrappa DNA and the Pathak set. However, in HarrappaDNA "Sikh Jatt" appears much lower for me so yes there will be differences amongst different Jatts so not sure if the above results should apply to any specific individuals.

We have to look at why Gujarati-Muslim, UP Muslim and Jatt are so close, and who are they far from.

Are you a Gujarati Ismaili/Khoja?

[Jatt1]

No they are different, I'm Bharuchi Patel.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post748499

Thanks. I see that Pegasus have already questioned your motives, he excels in many fields and one of them that we all here know is genetics.

[pegasus]

I can have another closer look again, but if I remember correctly, the Jatts are not particularly close to Steppe EMBA or MLBA (Yamnaya or Sintashta) which is what people mean when they say "Steppe DNA" but the Jatts are actuallly quite close to Botai/MA1 type of ancestry, which is strange, but points to an older and different type of relationship to the Steppes than Rors and others.

That makes no sense since Rors are essentially a subgroup within the Jats, since many of the other Jats in that region are pretty much the same. If you are using the Jat samples from the Reich Lab, those are not Jats. Though that does not change the fact its not Botai or Krotov people bringing Steppe ancestry for pretty much all populations in Southern Eurasia. I even looked at SPGT populations with low Steppe ancestry ( IVC shifted outliers) and they even ended up slightly more Steppe MLBA/CWC than expected. Yamnaya shifted sources work better (70-73%) vs Sintashta which is 65-68%, though they are still very closely related populations. The p value is 0.93 , it does not get better than that. We all know where you are going with this.

 

left pops:
Pakistan_IA_KatelaiSubset
SIS1459/8728
Russia_Srubnaya
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier

right pops:
Cameroon_SMA.DG
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic
Onge
PPNB
Anatolia_N
Iran_GanjDareh_N
DevilsCave_N.SG
Russia_UstBelaya_Angara
EHG
WSHG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
CHG
Sweden_HG_Motala

0 Pakistan_IA_KatelaiSubset 3
1 SIS1459/8728 2
2 Russia_Srubnaya 3
3 Alalakh_MLBA_outlier 1
4 Cameroon_SMA.DG 1
5 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 3
6 Onge 6
7 PPNB 11
8 Anatolia_N 30
9 Iran_GanjDareh_N 4
10 DevilsCave_N.SG 4
11 Russia_UstBelaya_Angara 11
12 EHG 3
13 WSHG 2
14 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
15 CHG 2
16 Sweden_HG_Motala 6
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1150513 indivs: 93
number of blocks for block jackknife: 714
## ncols: 1150513
coverage: Pakistan_IA_KatelaiSubset 835199
coverage: SIS1459/8728 715615
coverage: Russia_Srubnaya 521923
coverage: Alalakh_MLBA_outlier 733730
coverage: Cameroon_SMA.DG 1140138
coverage: Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1008226
coverage: Onge 1143397
coverage: PPNB 871625
coverage: Anatolia_N 1141220
coverage: Iran_GanjDareh_N 1014826
coverage: DevilsCave_N.SG 1149702
coverage: Russia_UstBelaya_Angara 1092594
coverage: EHG 1027057
coverage: WSHG 856695
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 805960
coverage: CHG 1149558
coverage: Sweden_HG_Motala 1038843
Effective number of blocks: 620.143
numsnps used: 1150513
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 10 chisq: 4.420 tail: 0.926403311 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: -4.420 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 1.115 -0.498
Onge -0.630 0.732
PPNB 1.098 -0.292
Anatolia_N 1.558 0.051
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.388 -2.294
DevilsCave_N.SG -0.432 0.472
Russia_UstBelaya_Angara -0.158 0.360
EHG 1.291 1.101
WSHG 0.976 0.288
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.723 0.384
CHG 0.758 -1.383
Sweden_HG_Motala 1.627 1.470
A:
scale 552.548 2077.943
SIS1459/8728 -0.403 0.120
Russia_Srubnaya 1.446 0.762
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier 0.865 -1.551


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 10 chisqdiff: 4.420 taildiff: 0.926403311
B:
scale 1624.142 361.539 566.267
Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic -1.096 1.040 1.264
Onge 1.293 -0.432 -0.762
PPNB -1.206 1.029 1.115
Anatolia_N -1.524 1.529 1.416
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.480 0.100 1.374
DevilsCave_N.SG 0.744 -0.305 -0.512
Russia_UstBelaya_Angara 0.620 -0.034 -0.200
EHG -1.098 1.422 0.753
WSHG -0.331 1.055 0.907
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.679 0.762 0.468
CHG -0.474 0.602 1.390
Sweden_HG_Motala -1.476 1.776 0.915
A:
scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
SIS1459/8728 1.732 0.000 0.000
Russia_Srubnaya 0.000 1.732 0.000
Alalakh_MLBA_outlier 0.000 0.000 1.732


best coefficients: 0.743 0.134 0.123
Jackknife mean: 0.742249812 0.133316264 0.124433924
std. errors: 0.038 0.041 0.061

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1480 309 -1790
309 1643 -1952
-1790 -1952 3742


summ: Pakistan_IA_KatelaiSubset 3 0.926403 0.742 0.133 0.124

[Koonger]

The Jatt sample is from Pathak, not from Reich. I already mentioned it matches with the Jatt samples from HarappaDNA as both are closest to Gujarati-Muslim, and that sample is the same in HarrapaDNA and ADMIXTOOLS (my own data).

Either way whatever is the Jatt sample from Pathak definitely has some additional Botai-type ancestry from the above f3 data. You are not even running f3s or f4s in your data, you are going straight into qpAdm. You are free to provide any other explanation of the f3 data showing Botai is close to some type of 'Jatt'.

Nice qpAdm btw, you know who gave you those right pops dont you? 2 years ago no one here was running qpADM with those outgroups, now everyone is using them and you dont even know who that came from...

You linked rors with arora/Khatris. Rors is a small population just 7-8 lacs akin to haryana jats in Karnal/kurukshetra area. They are nowhere related to Khatris/ aroras. I don't know this f3/qpadm but on Harappa they score very similar to haryana jats