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Thread: 2018 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes - Heavily Critique

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    Well you had claimed to not know the definition of "black", so I had used the map from Wikipedia to give some reference to the region defining the populations of the Saharo-Tropical African variant (black Africans). The same Saharo-tropical variant used by SOY Keita and by Kathryn Bards whom she described the ancient Egyptians as belong to below;

    The latter makes the definition of "Black" very clear, and the ancient Egyptians certainly were defined as such based on their external anatomical features (what they actually looked like). Therefore as I have stated, those craniometric - skeletal measurements and subsequent affinities will never change. The only thing that genetic evidence can provide past this point is who they are related to, which has no bearing on how they looked.

    "Overwhelmingly Eurasians". Geographical semantics! The Arabian Peninsula has been settled by Africans for over 100,000 years, and this is proven by the origins and expansion of the Nubian Techno Complex from the African Nile Valley into the adjacent region;

    We also know of further African colonization of the Arabian Peninsula by Cushitic - East Africans "types".

    (the less melaninated Semitic populations are always covered from head to toe to protect their skin from the sun in contrast with the pictures of the original Africoid population above)


    You're saying that you do not notice that the Nigerian (Dahomey Kingdom) royalty is depicted as a giant with a crock (of the traditional Nile Valley Osirian Crock and Flail) seated in the exact same manner with one hand sitting out while being pampered by happy citizens, and with one of the citizens having their hands out for offerings in the same manner fashion and form as the dynastic Egyptian king shown beside it....Well that's you playing a game. The Osirian crock and flail was pivotal to ancient Egyptian-Nubian royalty, and we see it in modern and ancient African societies
    because of the diffusion of the culture resulting from the migrations of the original Egyptian populous.



    It's kind of silly for you to call my evidence of a cultural analysis cherry picking. The point of the analysis was not a "racial" comparison in any way it was a cultural comparison. There was nothing subjective (i.e. "he or she is obviously black/white") about noting the common observations (noted above) between the contemporary Nigerian art and the ancient Egyptian art.

    Your picture is irrelevant, and many of the examples that you present as "refutation" of black Egypt is reflective of your ignorance of this most basic fact regarding African phenetic diversity;
    I noticed that you also gave reference to an "anti black ancient Egypt" favorite the "seated scribe", and you have been
    dooped
    by poor lighting. I notice how there are certain depictions from ancient Egypt that the Eurocentric crowd
    have
    to post. You all focus on that scribe, but ignore the countless other statues of scribes and priest;

    They analyzed the Amarna period Genome as well as the Rameside Genomes the same way as DNAtribes, which also came to the conclusions of inner African origins for all of the individuals;

    Gourdine JP, Keita SOY, Gourdine JL, Anselin A, 2018. Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt

    It could just be that they are things that you don't want to hear.

    For starters it's erroneous for you to reference Arabs as the only "Eurasian" proxy for the post dynastic Egyptians discontinuity with their early dynastic Egyptians. We know that the discontinuity began during dynastic times, and specifically as a results of the Eurasian invasions during the Late Period;

    We have Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, and then Arabs. This would explain the current genetic affinity of modern Egyptians;
    During dynastic times (especially early) the Delta region was sparsely populated, and the bulk of the Egyptian population originated and resided near the first cataract (on the so called Nubian border) in the Upper Egypt- Lower Nubia.

    Today however Lower Egypt is one of the most densely populated regions on Earth. That reversal of the nation's population center from the South along the "Nubians border" to the Delta along the Mediterranean in the north is clearly the result of late and post dynastic Eurasian invasions.

    No the Cushitic populations who were likely more so along the Rea Sea remained in Northern-East Africa, and that element which has been in place in the region since ancient times has been diluted by foreigners. There is a North-South cline of African genetic affinities in modern day Egypt, and the south is obviously more indigenous and more black African.

    That makes no sense when there is evidence to suggest that even the "neighboring Levantine populations" whom are non black are also relatively recent populations into the region. Y'all attach soooo much to land mass identity.
    So, to summarize, your biological argument is mostly based on craniometry and limb proportions, two anthropological fields that might be very useful and informative in many circumstances, but have proved to yield misleading or blatantly false results/conclusions with the introduction of ancient DNA. It's no wonder that a large portion of your quotes are late 19th and early 20th century.

    How exactly could these physical attributes "never change?" If that were the case and assuming we're all descended from Africans, wouldn't all humans have these same traits? The fact that you claim Natufians were "black Africans" based on such metrics again only demonstrates the pitfalls of your evidence.

    Your examples of artistic similarities are the definition of cherry picking. Most Nok or Dahomey art doesn't even remotely resemble ancient Egyptian art.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_figurine.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a_figurine.jpg
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nok-culture
    https://www.thoughtco.com/nok-earlie...-africa-171942
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:H...in_Dahomey.jpg
    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...-_DSC09176.JPG
    http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/...6/lot.372.html
    https://www.studyblue.com/notes/note.../deck/12555149

    And even if there was some degree of cultural transfer/diffusion over the course of thousands of years, that doesn't say much about the genetics/ancestry.

    You can find art from one country that resembles art from another country among most civilizations/regions in the world. This doesn't reflect a direct connection and, in fact, similar arguments have been made to claim connections between ancient Mesoamerica and ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia.

    My pictures are the results that show up when you search for "ancient Egypt Old Kingdom art." And they're not irrelevant. Much of your argument is based on vague subjective physical similarities between depictions (or descriptions) of ancient Egyptians and modern tropical African populations. The fact that none of these sculptures resemble any of the populations you cite clearly contradicts your claims. They do resemble indigenous North Africans, like modern day Egyptians.

    The seated scribe is a great example of how meaningless your physical comparisons are. You claim I've been "duped" because of lighting, yet it seems clear that the lighting in the images I posted is much better and, even if the skin tone was darker, that wouldn't change the facial structure and features, which are clearly North African (read: West Eurasian) and not tropical African.

    The same is true of all of the other artworks I posted. They resemble modern "white" Egyptians whether or not their skin was white, olive, or reddish-brown. It also doesn't help that some of the examples you post for Africans that the Egyptians should resemble are people of mixed West African and Northwest European ancestry.

    And of course it's no surprise that most of the images and quotes you've posted only yield results in Afro-centrist forums and websites...

    I didn't use Arabs as the only West Eurasian proxy for modeling modern Egyptians. I used a number of different ancient West Eurasians: Levantine, Arabian, Iranian, Greek, and North African (if you count this as "West Eurasian"). What's clear is that modern Egyptians are largely descended from people closely-related to ancient Levantines. And they have some, but much less, of the other ancestries, including ancient Ethiopians.

    If there's one thing you should take away from that genetic model is the fact that modern Egyptians are not descended from Arabian migrants. In contrast to Ethiopians (or many other North Africans for that matter), the Southwest Asians they share the closest affinity to are Levantines.

    aGMKpaB.png

    I don't doubt that both modern and ancient Upper Egyptians will likely have greater affinity to Northern Sudan and Red Sea populations while Lower Egyptians will have greater affinity to Mediterranean populations, but the underlying shared Egyptian ancestry seems to be more closely-related to ancient Levantines.

    The only person here attached to "land mass identity" is you by claiming that Egyptians were "black Africans" due in part to the fact that Egypt is on the African landmass, completely ignoring the fact that it's in much closer proximity to both the Levant and Arabia than it is to almost any of the other regions in Africa where you claim the true descendants of ancient Egyptians fled.

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    ??? You are confused. The only thing that I stated to you in that regard was that Northeast Africa is the Niger-Congo homeland. When you asked who were the modern representatives of the ancient Egyptian civilization I recall listing Niger-Congo speakers, Nilo-Saharan speakers, and Cushitic speakers. I provided a specific example proving the Akan's ancient Egyptian ancestry. I attributed the civilization to Twa. I added that part prior to you posting your little retort btw.

    Either you're confused or you're disgruntled, and are trying to make/start petty ridiculous arguments.
    Do you accept that the Ancient Egyptian language is a seperate branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family?

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    The confounding nature of the NE African physical anthropology record is precisely why I refuse to make any definitive statements on Egypt until the ancient DNA rolls in. That will finally put the debate on the AE's SSA affinities (or lack thereof) to rest for me. I don't have the time or patience to sit through an assault of graphics and selective quotes supporting one position or another. Life is too short-- there are plenty of other things to talk about while we wait for the data, and I am just as interested in the Nubian data as the Egyptian stuff.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  7. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    It hasn't been debunked.

    A. The Naqada should be very similar to the Badari...both are predynastic Upper Egyptians. And Brace's predynastic Upper Egyptian sample is Naqada. I also don't get why you're upset. Naqada seems to be intermediate and looks greater than halfway to Somalia than to the Maghreb.
    The distinctions found in ancient pre-dynastic cultures were between distinct black African races. The Naqada culture of pre-dynastic Upper Egypt had a major Cushitic/Dravidian element, along with a presence of "Niger-Congo speaking".



    B. There's no reason to just dismiss samples from India. Indians are Eurasian and Egyptians have a Eurasian component. Indians also have a sizable Basal Eurasian component which will probably be huge in Ancient Egyptians.
    I agree to an extent. Dr. C.A. Diop actually attributed the skeletal remains of early dynastic Lower Egyptians (set worshipers) to Dravidians.... The Dravidians of India however based on archaeological and anthropological evidence have been said to be of African origins. Anthropological evidence renders Dravidians to be identical to certain pre-dynastic Egyptian populations, and the study from Brace completely ignored the fact that the closest overall match was with the Indian-Dravidian sample then Somalis. Many Dravidian-Indian scholars acknowledge the Indus Valley-Nile Valley connection, and many even propose an African origin of Dravidians;




    I'm quite certain that the Naqada sample from Brace's Clines and Clusters study would show genetic affinity with Indian-Dravidians.

    C. Limb studies can never discredit cranio-metric studies.
    Never claim that they did..

    D. Dental studies don't show Ancient Egyptians having strong ties to Sub-Saharan Africans. So I don't know what you're talking about.
    If you are not willing to argue a narrative for the over biological affinity of the ancient Egyptians to whichever group they cluster to in that outliner study then it is fruitless on your behalf to even present invoke those findings. The study that I'm presenting (also shown on the first page) is more recent data on ancient Egyptian dental analysis, that is in accordance with other forms of evidence strengthening that narrative.

    Last edited by Asante; 02-12-2019 at 05:18 AM.

  8. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    The confounding nature of the NE African physical anthropology record is precisely why I refuse to make any definitive statements on Egypt until the ancient DNA rolls in. That will finally put the debate on the AE's SSA affinities (or lack thereof) to rest for me. I don't have the time or patience to sit through an assault of graphics and selective quotes supporting one position or another. Life is too short-- there are plenty of other things to talk about while we wait for the data, and I am just as interested in the Nubian data as the Egyptian stuff.
    Why has there been such a delay in uploading Egyptian aDNA to the web? I would expect it to be readily available considering how important it is, and considering the wealth of other ancient samples we already have, yet I don't see it on gedmatch or many other sites. I am also looking forward to Mesopotamian aDNA.

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  10. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    The distinctions found in ancient pre-dynastic cultures were between distinct black African races. The Naqada culture of pre-dynastic Upper Egypt had a major Cushitic/Dravidian element, along with a presence of "Niger-Congo speaking".

    I agree to an extent. Dr. C.A. Diop actually attributed the skeletal remains of early dynastic Lower Egyptians (set worshipers) to Dravidians.... The Dravidians of India however based on archaeological and anthropological evidence have been said to be of African origins. Anthropological evidence renders Dravidians to be identical to certain pre-dynastic Egyptian populations, and the study from Brace completely ignored the fact that the closest overall match was with the Indian-Dravidian sample then Somalis. Many Dravidian-Indian scholars acknowledge the Indus Valley-Nile Valley connection, and many even propose an African origin of Dravidians;
    There is at least some degree of plausibility for SSA affinities in Egypt, but arguing for an African origin for the Dravidians is ridiculous. The South Asian DNA record completely invalidates that idea. You are not helping your case at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Censored View Post
    Why has there been such a delay in uploading Egyptian aDNA to the web? I would expect it to be readily available considering how important it is, and considering the wealth of other ancient samples we already have, yet I don't see it on gedmatch or many other sites. I am also looking forward to Mesopotamian aDNA.
    I think a lot of the remains we want to test are in Egypt, and if I'm not mistaken the Egyptian government has strict rules about keeping everything in house. I doubt they have ancient DNA labs there, so that's a problem. Harvard, Max Planck, etc. would have to jump through a ton of logistical hoops to get it done to their usual standard of quality, I guess. I'm sure it will happen sooner rather than later, though. Nobody is going to want to miss out on the ancient DNA craze.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 02-12-2019 at 05:28 AM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  12. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    This is amusing, much like Ricky Bobby father's said:

    "Ricky if you ain't first, you last".

    Except this is:

    "If you ain't pale, your black."
    These hunter gatherer "black" Africans who are responsible for bringing the Aurignacian culture into Europe are not exactly Dinka-Nilotic black;


    Samara Hunter Gatherer lived some >7000 years ago, and was Blonde haired, blue eyed and pale skinned.
    Sooo we're still in the 6,000-12,000 year time frame noted in the article that I posted regarding the origin of pale skin



    So light skin and modern day European pale phenotype+blonde hair+blue eyes dates back to over 7000 years ago, that's the problem with Ancient DNA, when a new study comes out, it makes articles written prior to it, essentially meaningless.
    That's not true, and this entire thread addressing Schuenemann et al. 2017 debunks your line of thinking right there. The newer study as criticized by a coalition of other bio-geneticist took ommited the most pivotal considerations from their sampling decisions, and it was shown in that criticism that older studies were likely more reliable than the "more recent" study.

    Also, most (90%+) the farmers sequenced to date, the people who moved back into Africa were also paled skinned with brown eyes. So there is that!
    Incorrect, those "light" skin variants are found in pitch black African populations today, as my sources indicate above.

    One last thing, I have no dog on the Egyptian debate, but going by DNA evidence it is more than obvious that the descendants of most of the Ancient Egyptians are the modern day Egyptians, with the Copts being the closest to some of the Dynasties, I'm sure the Sudanese people would be closer to other Dynasties Royals.

    West Africans sure as hell are not close to any of the Ancient Egyptians, so you wasn't Egyptian Kangs and Shit! Well, actually the Malian Empire might be a better place to look at for royal ancestry in Africa.
    Your opinion lacks knowledge...so it's not worth considering. If you want to gain some knowledge on the subject then you can surf through my post throughout this thread.

  13. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    There is at least some degree of plausibility for SSA affinities in Egypt,
    At this point in this thread's history silly shit like that is reflective of nothing more than Eurocentric racism. Cognitive Dissonance. Trolling at this point only to be ignored.

  14. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    Do you accept that the Ancient Egyptian language is a seperate branch of the Afro-Asiatic language family?
    No! Dr. Theophile Obenga (of the legendary UNESCO 1974 Conference) debunked the notion of an "Afro-Asiatic" language long ago. In his debate with C. Ehhret back in the 90's, Ehret had to concede that Obenga proved his points. In the video he directly states the purpose for the West creating the Afro-Asiatic language (a revamped Hamitic hypothesis).




    Obenga still teaches and his students carry out his work today


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    There is at least some degree of plausibility for SSA affinities in Egypt, but arguing for an African origin for the Dravidians is ridiculous. The South Asian DNA record completely invalidates that idea. You are not helping your case at all.
    There's plausibility of them having a Sub-Saharan component..and I would no doubt say genetically they'll be more African than any other Ancient Race (Jews, Phoenicians, Persian, Greeks, Indo-Aryans), ...but there's basically 0 plausibility for it being the dominant component in them though.

    Even if the Egyptian genomes we currently have were say 50% Bronze Age Levant 50% Ancient Old Kingdom Egyptian....it will be a very bad outcome for the Afrocentrists.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 02-12-2019 at 06:26 AM.

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