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Thread: 2018 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes - Heavily Critique

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    So what you're saying is, these anatomical observations are a poor guide to deep ancestry?
    I am merely relaying the fact that despite the smoke and mirror games that some like to play with genetics these are people (early Eurasians) who look no different than the range of modern day "Sub Saharan African" types. Much evidence suggest that it remained this way until around the second millennium BC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    Let's address the fact that that mess is an unpublished thesis from 2011. What actual published research has stated with regards to Bi-Liiac breadth is that they are correlated with dietary and lifestyle changes;

    "Furthermore bi-iliac breadth appears to change slowly over time, likely due to multiple factors (thermoregulation, obstetrics, locomotion) influencing its shape (Ruff 1994; Auerback 2007).."

    "Generally narrower body breaths of the foragers contrast markedy with the wider-bodied agriculturalists. Although bi-iliac breadth has been argued to be stable over long periods of time (Auerbach, 2007), this shift in mean body breath may be indicative of changes correlated with subsistence economy."

    "Any use of the bi-iliac breath/stature body mass estimations would inherently reflect changes in stature.."

    "In this study, skeletal measures of body size were analysed to evaluate the long-term impact of the transition to agriculture in the Nile Valley.. Here we demonstrate that this transition is also associated with a modest reduction and subsequent improvement in stature and body mass. This trend could be broadly interpreted in the context of models of relationship between body size and nutrition." -- Pinhasi & Stock. 2011. Human Bioarchaeology of the Transition to Agriculture
    You do realize aside from the Ancient Egyptians the data is from Ruff 1994 don't you? She's just literally copy/pasting Ruff's data and table into her paper.

    And obviously blaming it on agriculture alone does not cut it....since it's so heavily correlated to latitude. Two agricultural populations of different latitude/climate don't have the same bi-iliac breaths or even close.

    Anyway, the Cranio-metric data totally debunks you and that's much more important.

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  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    I am merely relaying the fact that despite the smoke and mirror games that some like to play with genetics these are people (early Eurasians) who look no different than the range of modern day "Sub Saharan African" types. Much evidence suggest that it remained this way until around the second millennium BC.
    If you were hoping to persuade anyone with skeletal evidence from where we don't have ancient DNA, discrediting it where we do is not the best tactic.

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  6. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    You do realize aside from the Ancient Egyptians the data is from Ruff 1994 don't you? She's just literally copy/pasting Ruff's data and table into her paper.
    The conclusions from that unpublished thesis paper of a mass migration into early or pre dynastic Egypt has no solid ground to stand on;

    "There is no archaeological, linguistic, or historical data which indicate a European or Asiatic invasion of, or migration to, the Nile Valley during First Dynasty times. Previous concepts about the origin of the First Dynasty Egyptians as being somehow external to the Nile Valley or less native are not supported by archaeology... In summary, the Abydos First Dynasty royal tomb contents reveal a notable craniometric heterogeneity. Southerners predominate. (Kieta, S. (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)"

    And obviously blaming it on agriculture alone does not cut it....since it's so heavily correlated to latitude.
    Hmmm, well actual published peer reviewed studies that have already been presented say otherwise.

    Anyway, the Cranio-metric data totally debunks you and that's much more important.
    First let's understand the use of the word "important" as it pertains to this discussion of early ancient Egypt. Lower Egypt, under no circumstances was never on the level of importance to the foundation of ancient Egypt as Southern Egypt and Nubia;

    "While not attempting to underestimate the contribution that Deltaic political and religious institutions made to those of a united Egypt, many Egyptologists now discount the idea that a united prehistoric kingdom of Lower Egypt ever existed."

    "While communities such as Ma'adi appear to have played an important role in entrepots through which goods and ideas form south-west Asia filtered into the Nile Valley in later prehistoric times, the main cultural and political tradition that gave rise to the cultural pattern of Early Dynastic Egypt is to be found not in the north but in the south.":
    The Cambridge History of Africa: Volume 1, From the Earliest Times to c. 500 BC, (Cambridge University Press: 1982), Edited by J. Desmond Clark pp. 500-509

    and

    "Evidence in Lower Egypt consists mainly of settlements with very simple burials, in contrast to Upper Egypt, where cemeteries with elaborate burials are found. The rich grave goods in several major cemeteries in Upper Egypt represent the acquired wealth of higher social strata, and these cemeteries were probably associated with centers of craft production. Trade and exchange of finished goods and luxury materials from the Eastern and Western Deserts and Nubia would have taken place in such centers. In Lower Egypt however, while excavated settlements permit a broader reconstruction of the prehistoric economy, there is little evidence for any great socioeconomic complexity... Archaeological evidence points to the origins of the state which emerged by the 1st Dynasty in Nagada culture of Upper Egypt, where grave types, pottery and artifacts demonstrate an evolution of from from the Predynastic to the 1st Dynasty. This cannot be demonstrated for the material culture of lower Egypt, which was eventually displaced by that originating in Upper Egypt."
    --K. Bard (2005). Encyclopaedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt. 28

    and

    "..the early cultures of Merimde, the Fayum, Badari Naqada I and II are essentially African and early African social customs and religious beliefs were the root and foundation of the ancient Egyptian way of life." (Source: Shaw, Thurston (1976) Changes in African Archaeology in the Last Forty Years in African Studies since 1945. p. 156-68. London.)

    HEre you can see that more recent craniometric evidence shows that early Lower Egyptians exhibited a range of variations that keeps them firmly within the range of indigenous black African craniometric variations;

    "Maadi and both northern Early Dynastic series, while distinctive, are closer to the Upper Egyptians on PC 2 in “shape” than Wadi Digla, which indicates a level of diversity in Lower Egypt. Interestingly, the Maadi PD sample is more similar overall to Upper Egyptians than to Lower Egyptians (with the exception of Wadi Digla) when compared to Badari. The Abydos ED series, as noted, shows similarity to the Predynastic Upper Egyptian series, but is also distinctive along both axes of variation. On PC 1 and 2 the Predynastic Upper Egyptian series (Abydos, Naqada, Badari) group more closely to each other overall than do the Lower Egyptian Predynastic series (Wadi Digla and Maadi), depicting the greater level of diversity in northern Egypt."------Keita, SOY, Godde, K. 2016. A preliminary analysis of diachronic craniometric geographical variation during the Predynastic-Early Dynastic period: possible population implications for the theories of the merger of upper and lower Egypt. Göttinger Miszellen 249: 97-110.

    We see that within that indigenous Lower African Egyptian diversity the classic "Negroid" were certainly among them dating back around the period of Neolithic diffusion from the Sahara during 7,000 BC;

    "The body was that of a forty-year old woman with a height of about 1.6 meters, who was of a more modern racial type than the classic 'Mechtoid' of the Fakhurian culture (see pp. 65-6), being generally more gracile, having large teeth and thick jaws bearing some resemblance to the modern 'negroid' type." (Beatrix Midant-Reynes, Ian Shaw (2000). The Prehistory of Egypt. Wiley-Blackwell. pg. 82)
    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 04:26 AM.

  7. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    If you were hoping to persuade anyone with skeletal evidence from where we don't have ancient DNA, discrediting it where we do is not the best tactic.
    Debunked??


    Do you understand that these measurements don't change? The later designation of a haplogroup to ancient and analyzed skeleton does not make a person with external anatomical features related to black Africans, suddenly change to look like white people. Do you understand? That would be like digging in Cameroon, and finding a Negroid skeleton, and saying that because he belongs to Y-DNA hap R that he is no longer physically a black man. You all have no logic, but just as I suspected is an attempt to rewrite your history in fantasy.

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    We don't have any ancient DNA from the Grimaldi skeletons (do we?). It seems highly unlikely that they would somehow turn out to be West Africans, but who knows, maybe they are different from other ancient Europeans. If you have some theory about how they have separate origins from other ancient Europeans, good for you.

    We do have ancient DNA from hundreds of other ancient Europeans, and most of it is genome wide, not just uniparental haplogroups. Why not dig up the physical anthropology for those ones, so we can have a useful discussion?
    Last edited by Megalophias; 02-10-2019 at 06:51 PM.

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  10. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    Bottom line;

    Early Europeans still resembled modern tropical peoples - some resemble modern Australian and Africans, more than modern EuropeansNor does the picture get any clearer when we move on to the Cro-Magnons, the presumed ancestors of modern Europeans.Some were more like present-day Australians or Africans, judged by objective anatomical observations." (Christopher Stringer, Robin McKie (1998). African Exodus. Macmillan, p. 162)

    or

    "The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants,although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa(Brace, 2005)

    There is no getting away from that fact.
    Bottom line is you are horribly under-researched or intentionally spreading misinformation if you ever thought Grimaldi was the 'first European'.
    There is no getting away from that fact.

    To your first blurb, so what? They hadn't fully adapted to their new environment yet. This about ancient Egypt, why are we even talking about 'Cro-magnons'?
    To your second blurb, genetics has since overturned your now outdated reference.
    Last edited by Kale; 02-10-2019 at 08:52 PM.
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  12. #98
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    While I am still open to the possibility that earlier AE remains will be substantially different to the ones we have sampled as of now, I find it very unlikely, based on the ancient DNA we do have, from both North Africa and the Levant, along with other ancient DNA studies of Bronze age civilizations with some form of literacy, that there is some giant genetic leap from say early dynastic periods to the current Ancient Egyptian DNA we do have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    It's quite obvious that the authors of the study in question equated SSA and Africa as a whole with a single proxy--modern Yoruba. The same thing is true of Lazaridis et al. and their first study on the Natufians, so it's not a pointless tangent.
    Well, I don't believe the Abusir mummy authors really think that. I agree that more African proxies in the qpAdm and f4 ratio would be nice, but it's not like those are the only analyses. You are mistaken about the Natufians - Laziridis et al compared them with Mota, Mbuti, and Ju|hoan North in addition to Yoruba, which is a pretty good set.

    I am not sure if there are any modern studies on that question. Most of the studies available compared Ancient Egyptians with contemporary ancient Nubians and sometimes modern day African Americans and SSAs. However, as far as I am aware, modern day Nubians are seen as descendants of the medieval Christan kingdom of Nubia and are not seen as being directly descended from the Nubians (A-group Nubians, Kushites, Medjay, etc.) associated with Ancient Egypt.
    Thanks. I did some Googling I found a couple of studies that claim continuity between Meroitic and Christian Nubia, but I haven't found anything about modern Nubians.

    Greene (1982), “Discrete dental variations and biological distances of Nubian populations”: 7 dental traits in Meroitic, X-Group, and Christian populations from Lower Nubia (Wadi Halfa and Kulubnarti). “None of the populations are significantly different from each other…. In this area of Nubia there is no evidence for the infusion of people with radically different biological backgrounds during the X-Group period…. It is possible, however, that there may have been some infusion of more Negroid peoples into other parts of Nubia during the X-Group period.”

    Another one says that there was some migration from the north during that period also.

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  16. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post

    "The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa(Brace, 2005)[/CENTER]

    There is no getting away from that fact.
    That was taken from: ''The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form'' Brace 2005.

    The first problem is that 2005 is a millenia away in a field that is changing so quickly. The skeletal analysis and reconstructions performed on European Neolithic and pre-Neolithic remains since then have shown that even WHG resembled modern Europeans craniofacially. Not to mention EEFs who have WHG admixture.

    The second problem is your quote: 'the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants'. As I already said, and to repeat what Kale said, since 2005 we have had hundreds of autosomal results from WHG,EEF, not to mention Bronze Age Europeans and they all cluster with modern day Europeans on a world scale.

    Being subjective for a second, I'd go as far as to say that were we to meet a farmer from the European Neolithic today, their appearance would probably resemble something like Mediterranean-Balkan.

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