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Thread: 2018 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes - Heavily Critique

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    We don't have any ancient DNA from the Grimaldi skeletons (do we?). It seems highly unlikely that they would somehow turn out to be West Africans,
    No genetic revelation will ever change the fact that the Grimaldi had external anatomical features matching that of black Africans (namely the Khoi Khoi).

    but who knows, maybe they are different from other ancient Europeans. If you have some theory about how they have separate origins from other ancient Europeans, good for you.
    There have been sweeping conclusions made throughout academia about the physical appearance of the early Europeans, based on the conclusive evidence of the only thing that will tell us what they looked like which is through their skeletal remains.

    "Upper Paleolithic peoples of tropical African genetic origins who populated the rest of the globe after 65,000 ybp were exposed to other stresses. Earlly Upper Paleolithic peoples in Europe were particularly tall, apparently an expression of both tropical origins and better-quality food during an interglacial."
    --John Brooke. 2014. Climate Change and the Course of Global History: A Rough Journey. 216.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    "Upper Paleolithic peoples of tropical African genetic origins who populated the rest of the globe after 65,000 ybp were exposed to other stresses. Earlly Upper Paleolithic peoples in Europe were particularly tall, apparently an expression of both tropical origins and better-quality food during an interglacial."
    --John Brooke. 2014. Climate Change and the Course of Global History: A Rough Journey. 216.
    The Out of Africa theory, obscure knowledge known only to Asante. Would it kill you to try to contribute something useful.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 02-11-2019 at 03:05 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Bottom line is you are horribly under-researched or intentionally spreading misinformation if you ever thought Grimaldi was the 'first European'. There is no getting away from that fact.
    Well some context is in order then. The Aurignacian culture of 45,000 BC was brought in with the migration of the Khoisan Africoid populations who would later be identified as the Grimaldi in Italy.
    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 03:42 AM.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    The Out of Africa theory, obscure knowledge known only to Asante. Would it kill you to try to contribute something useful.
    You're trying to downplay the fact that they were black Africans, and until relatively recently at that.


  5. #105
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    We all know this stuff *much* better than you do, Asante, so please stop spamming up the thread. Why the hell did I reply to you again?

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  7. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by nee4speed111 View Post
    While I am still open to the possibility that earlier AE remains will be substantially different to the ones we have sampled as of now, I find it very unlikely, based on the ancient DNA we do have, from both North Africa and the Levant, along with other ancient DNA studies of Bronze age civilizations with some form of literacy, that there is some giant genetic leap from say early dynastic periods to the current Ancient Egyptian DNA we do have.
    It seems like many of you all were not aware of any of the bio-cultural research conducted on the ancient Egyptians prior to aDNA testing...Here's a good breakdown of that research from the authority on the bio-cultural origins of ancient Egypt (at least according to the National Geographic) in his Cambridge lecture earlier this decade;


    You assumed (based on no other research that I have seen) that Northeast Africans and Northwest Africans have some sort of close genetic and cultural relationship, when that is simply not the case. The ancient Egyptians were analyzed directly between the regions of modern "North African" (mulattoes) and modern populations residing south of the Sahara, and they of course (as consistent with other crucial lines of evidence) found to group with the black Africans to the south;

    The distribution of subsets of haplogroups U6 and M1 also suggests the presence of a discontinuity between Libya and Egypt, separating western North Africa from eastern North Africa. Even if both haplogroups are thought to have been carried by a back-to-Africa migration from the Near East, significant increased U6 frequencies have been detected in the West compared to the East. The network of all U6 sequences found in the database presents two nodes with star-like shape, U6a* and U6a1. In a similar way, M1a1 is the node with starlike topology in haplogroup M1, and the node where most of the eastern sequences are found. Time estimates of these nodes are 13.5 6 3.7, 13.0 6 5.7, and 13.1 6 7.0 kya for haplogroups U6a*, U6a1, and M1a1 respectively. The most plausible explanation of the frequency distribution of M1a, U6, and M1b1 lineages, their coalescence age estimates, and the star-like shape would be an early split in the back to Africa migration followed by a period of stability and a period of expansion. The split would have produced two different migration waves, one westward, represented by U6 and possibly M1b1 in lower frequencies, and the other southward, represented by M1a. Each haplogroup would have increased its frequency by drift and subsequently accumulated diversity over time. Coalescent time estimates point to a possible second expansion of these haplogroups at the end of the LGM, simultaneously with some Eurasian haplogroups, as suggested by Olivieri et al. (2006). Moreover, all but one M1a1 sequence are found in eastern North Africa, which suggests that this subclade might have appeared in the East, and only after that have migrated westwards at this period.

    -- Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., (2011)


    and

    In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.---Pierre M. Vermeersch in Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt
    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 03:39 AM.

  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    It seems like many of you all were not aware of any of the bio-cultural research conducted on the ancient Egyptians prior to aDNA testing...Here's a good breakdown of that research from the authority on the bio-cultural origins of ancient Egypt (at least according to the National Geographic) in his Cambridge lecture earlier this decade;


    You assumed (based on no other research that I have seen) that Northeast Africans and Northwest Africans have some sort of close genetic and cultural relationship, when that is simply not the case. The ancient Egyptians were analyzed directly between the regions of modern "North African" (mulattoes) and modern populations residing south of the Sahara, and they of course (as consistent with other crucial lines of evidence) found to group with the black Africans to the south;

    The distribution of subsets of haplogroups U6 and M1 also suggests the presence of a discontinuity between Libya and Egypt, separating western North Africa from eastern North Africa. Even if both haplogroups are thought to have been carried by a back-to-Africa migration from the Near East, significant increased U6 frequencies have been detected in the West compared to the East. The network of all U6 sequences found in the database presents two nodes with star-like shape, U6a* and U6a1. In a similar way, M1a1 is the node with starlike topology in haplogroup M1, and the node where most of the eastern sequences are found. Time estimates of these nodes are 13.5 6 3.7, 13.0 6 5.7, and 13.1 6 7.0 kya for haplogroups U6a*, U6a1, and M1a1 respectively. The most plausible explanation of the frequency distribution of M1a, U6, and M1b1 lineages, their coalescence age estimates, and the star-like shape would be an early split in the back to Africa migration followed by a period of stability and a period of expansion. The split would have produced two different migration waves, one westward, represented by U6 and possibly M1b1 in lower frequencies, and the other southward, represented by M1a. Each haplogroup would have increased its frequency by drift and subsequently accumulated diversity over time. Coalescent time estimates point to a possible second expansion of these haplogroups at the end of the LGM, simultaneously with some Eurasian haplogroups, as suggested by Olivieri et al. (2006). Moreover, all but one M1a1 sequence are found in eastern North Africa, which suggests that this subclade might have appeared in the East, and only after that have migrated westwards at this period.

    -- Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid et al., (2011)


    and

    In the sum, the results obtained further strengthen the results from previous analyses. The affinities between Nazlet Khater, MSA, and Khoisan and Khoisan related groups re-emerges. In addition it is possible to detect a separation between North African and sub-saharan populations, with the Neolithic Saharan population from Hasi el Abiod and the Egyptian Badarian group being closely affiliated with modern Negroid groups. Similarly, the Epipaleolithic populations from Site 117 and Wadi Halfa are also affiliated with sub-Saharan LSA, Iron Age and modern Negroid groups rather than with contemporaneous North African populations such as Taforalt and the Ibero-maurusian.---Pierre M. Vermeersch in Palaeolithic quarrying sites in Upper and Middle Egypt
    My assumption was less so about the connection between Northeast Africans and Northwest Africans, but more about the DNA connection between Northwest Africans and the Levant that has so far been proven through ancient DNA. The only way that Natufians could have acquired their ANA ancestry is through Egypt, much in the same way that the Taforalt remains could have only acquired their West Eurasian affinities through the East, namely through Egypt. If this is proven to be wrong, and instead Ancient Egyptians from the Dynastic period are more closely related to "black africans" as you say, instead of modern day ethnic groups in Egypt, then I will concede the point. However, based on what we know so far, I don't think that's likely, certainly not for Egyptians after the unification of both Upper & Lower Egypt.

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  10. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by nee4speed111 View Post
    My assumption was less so about the connection between Northeast Africans and Northwest Africans, but more about the DNA connection between Northwest Africans and the Levant that has so far been proven through ancient DNA. The only way that Natufians could have acquired their ANA ancestry is through Egypt,
    Or...perhaps it is simply another indigenous black African ancestral marker to which the overwhelming majority of the human genome already belongs to.



    If this is proven to be wrong, and instead Ancient Egyptians from the Dynastic period are more closely related to "black africans" as you say, instead of modern day ethnic groups in Egypt,
    "As I say", and you say that while you have in your quote box a quote from a study that I posted labeling one of the if not the most pivotal pre-dynastic Egyptian groups (Badarians) as "Negroid" related to modern black African people south of the Sahara desert. It seems like you all don't ever want to stop suck it in, and accept the fact that nothing that you can provide past this point will ever overturn the facts that these craniometric measurements directly indicate black populations.

    then I will concede the point. However, based on what we know so far, I don't think that's likely, certainly not for Egyptians after the unification of both Upper & Lower Egypt.
    Who expects for genetic breakthroughs to change this conclusive information right here?

    "There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas." .."must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)

    In other words the only thing that you can argue at this point is that the ancient Egyptians looked black (conclusively proven);


    (The picture above is of Djed Pillar in modern day West Africa...it's seems strange that a people considered unrelated to the ancient Egyptians (at least in peoples biased minds) would to this very day practice a pivotal ancient Egyptian ceremony.)

    but were "genetically" related to people who are not considered black;



    By the way do you know that the Muslims (whom many like to attribute the ancient civilization) actually peeled the limestone off of the great pyramid (which was reported be seen shining as far as Palestine) to make their Mosque when they invaded Egypt with their 4,000 man army in the 7th century AD? They desecrate the graves of the land that they invaded, because it's vital to the economy. But most importantly they know that they are not digging up and exploiting their ancestors.
    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 04:40 AM.

  11. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    Well some context is in order then. The Aurignacian culture of 45,000 BC was brought in with the migration of the Khoisan Africoid populations who would later be identified as the Grimaldi in Italy.
    Regardless of the validity or lack thereof of any of that, so what? This has ____ to do with ancient Egypt?

    You are (between tangents) arguing for a largely African origin both genetically and culturally for early Egyptians.
    The best way you can advance this argument is to just stop posting, you're giving it's proponents a bad name.
    Please go back to the Egyptwhateverforum you came here from.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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  13. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Regardless of the validity or lack thereof of any of that, so what? This has ____ to do with ancient Egypt?

    You are (between tangents) arguing for a largely African origin both genetically and culturally for early Egyptians.
    The best way you can advance this argument is to just stop posting, you're giving it's proponents a bad name.
    That's already proven (see my post above). The point of this thread was to show that the bunk study from 2017 (that the West got all giddy over) was just that....bunk.

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