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Thread: 2018 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes - Heavily Critique

  1. #121
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    according to anthropologist Dr. C. Brace:

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  3. #122
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    Sounds like we will be getting Middle Kingdom autosomal DNA in the hopefully not too distant future, what do people predict it'll look like? It would be interesting to see how well predictions based on physical anthropology will do.

    I'm going to guess a lot of quasi-Natufian, some Anatolian, minimal Iranian, and a considerable chunk of Nilo-Saharan. But I won't be surprised to be completely wrong.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    1) Not sure what that first map is meant to prove, but seeing as Egypt is grouped with the rest of the Mediterranean and separate from SSA,
    Well you had claimed to not know the definition of "black", so I had used the map from Wikipedia to give some reference to the region defining the populations of the Saharo-Tropical African variant (black Africans). The same Saharo-tropical variant used by SOY Keita and by Kathryn Bards whom she described the ancient Egyptians as belong to below;

    "Actually, it was always biologically wrong to view the Broad phenotype as representative of the only authentic "African," something understood by some nineteenth century writers. Early Nile valley populations are best viewed as part of an African descent group or lineage with tropical adaptations and relationships. This group is highly variable, as would be expected. Archaeological data also support this position, which is not new.

    Over time, gene flow (admixture) did occur in the Nile valley from Europe and the Near East, thus also giving "Egyptians" relationship with those groups. This admixture, if it had occurred by Dynasty I, little affected the major affinity of southern predynastic peoples as illustrated here. As indicated by the analysis of the data in the studies reviewed here, the southern predynastic peoples were Saharo-tropical variants."

    SOURCE: S. O. Y. Keita, "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54

    and

    Two opposing theories for the origin of Dynastic Egyptians dominated scholarly debate over the last century: whether the ancient Egyptians were black Africans (historically referred to as Negroid) originating biologically and culturally in Saharo-Tropical Africa, or whether they originated as a Dynastic Race in the Mediterranean or western Asian regions (people historically categorized as White, or Caucasoid)...."There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas."...informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data. In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. (Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999) pp 328-332)

    The latter makes the definition of "Black" very clear, and the ancient Egyptians certainly were defined as such based on their external anatomical features (what they actually looked like). Therefore as I have stated, those craniometric - skeletal measurements and subsequent affinities will never change. The only thing that genetic evidence can provide past this point is who they are related to, which has no bearing on how they looked.

    I don't think it supports your arguments. Doesn't help that Arabia is included despite the fact that Arabians are overwhelmingly West Eurasian.
    "Overwhelmingly Eurasians". Geographical semantics! The Arabian Peninsula has been settled by Africans for over 100,000 years, and this is proven by the origins and expansion of the Nubian Techno Complex from the African Nile Valley into the adjacent region;



    We also know of further African colonization of the Arabian Peninsula by Cushitic - East Africans "types".

    “..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“ -- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia"




    (the less melaninated Semitic populations are always covered from head to toe to protect their skin from the sun in contrast with the pictures of the original Africoid population above)

    "Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.”-- Charles Hardwick (1872)"



    Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full,rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.”-- Henry Field, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4 (1902)

    There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.”-- Elliot Smith, he Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization (1923)

    In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these.”-- Handbook of the Territories which form the Theater of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies

    2) Not entirely sure what you think you're proving with the artistic "parallels," but they don't support your arguments.
    You're saying that you do not notice that the Nigerian (Dahomey Kingdom) royalty is depicted as a giant with a crock (of the traditional Nile Valley Osirian Crock and Flail) seated in the exact same manner with one hand sitting out while being pampered by happy citizens, and with one of the citizens having their hands out for offerings in the same manner fashion and form as the dynastic Egyptian king shown beside it....Well that's you playing a game. The Osirian crock and flail was pivotal to ancient Egyptian-Nubian royalty, and we see it in modern and ancient African societies

    (
    "The Nok culture of northern Nigeria, a civilization that existed from approximately 500 B.C.E to about 500 C.E., is principally known for its terracotta figures. Relatively little is known about the purpose of these figures or the civilization that created such extraordinary sculptural representations of its people...This work depicts a person of high status wearing elaborate beaded jewelry, and with a crooked baton on his right arm and a hinged flail on the left. These are symbols of authority also found in ancient Egyptian depictions of the Pharaohs and the god Osiris. The Nok culture existed during the late Pharonic period"

    because of the diffusion of the culture resulting from the migrations of the original Egyptian populous.

    Cherry picking a handful of pieces...Ancient Egyptian art much more closely resembles the art of contemporaneous Mesopotamia and the Eastern Mediterranean than it does the undated Dahomey art or other West/Central African art for that matter.
    It's kind of silly for you to call my evidence of a cultural analysis cherry picking. The point of the analysis was not a "racial" comparison in any way it was a cultural comparison. There was nothing subjective (i.e. "he or she is obviously black/white") about noting the common observations (noted above) between the contemporary Nigerian art and the ancient Egyptian art.

    Your picture is irrelevant, and many of the examples that you present as "refutation" of black Egypt is reflective of your ignorance of this most basic fact regarding African phenetic diversity;

    "In addition, craniometric variation also shows agreement with genetic data in showing highest levels of diversity in sub-Saharan Africa than in other geographic regions (Relethford and Harpending, 1994). Further, there is a clear decline in levels of craniometric variation as geographic distance from East Africa increases (Manica et al., 2007; von Cramon-Taubadel and Lycett, 2008; Betti et al., 2009)."
    -- John H. Relethford* (2010). Population-Specific Deviations of Global Human Craniometric Variation From a Neutral Model. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 2010

    and

    "The living peoples of the African continent are diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color, hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one set of characteristics is more African than another. Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously restricted. There is a problem with definitions. Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors, like language, that exclude developments that clearly arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded because of geography and language and the fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and faces.

    However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria, and its languages are African. The latitude of 15 degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient Egyptians in some writings have been de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches." (S. Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105. [10])

    I noticed that you also gave reference to an "anti black ancient Egypt" favorite the "seated scribe", and you have been dooped by poor lighting. I notice how there are certain depictions from ancient Egypt that the Eurocentric crowd have to post. You all focus on that scribe, but ignore the countless other statues of scribes and priest;






    3) Both the specific "genes" you mention are only found on the website of the company DNA Consultants. Just from looking at their "Jewish Fingerprint" sample, which is riddled with inaccurate numbers and blatant lies, it's easy to tell this company is selling nonsense.
    They analyzed the Amarna period Genome as well as the Rameside Genomes the same way as DNAtribes, which also came to the conclusions of inner African origins for all of the individuals;

    Other DNA data show substantial African affinity: “Results that are likely reliable are from studies that analyzed short tandem repeats (STRs) from Amarna royal mummies5 (1,300 BC), and of Ramesses III (1,200 BC)6; Ramesses III had the Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1a, an old African lineage7. Our analysis of STRs from Amarna and Ramesside royal mummies with popAffiliator18 based on the same published data5,6 indicates a 41.7% to 93.9% probability of SSA affinities (see Table 1); most of the individuals had a greater probability of affiliation with “SSA” which is not the only way to be “African”- a point worth repeating.”FROM: -Gourdine JP, Keita SOY, Gourdine JL, Anselin A, 2018. Ancient Egyptian Genomes from northern Egypt


    4) Nothing you wrote about European population history is even remotely accurate.
    It could just be that they are things that you don't want to hear.

    5) Almost nothing you've written about the supposed depopulation and repopulation of Egypt has any basis.

    If we model modern Egyptians against ancient samples, their BA Southwest Asian ancestry isn't associated with Arabia (Levant BA South), it's associated with the actual Levant (Levant BA North).
    For starters it's erroneous for you to reference Arabs as the only "Eurasian" proxy for the post dynastic Egyptians discontinuity with their early dynastic Egyptians. We know that the discontinuity began during dynastic times, and specifically as a results of the Eurasian invasions during the Late Period;

    Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002)...Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990).

    We have Assyrians, Persians, Greeks, and then Arabs. This would explain the current genetic affinity of modern Egyptians;



    So for your theory to hold any weight, massive Egypt, with its continuous historical population of millions, would've had to have been largely repopulated by Levantine peoples, whose population was a fraction of the former.
    During dynastic times (especially early) the Delta region was sparsely populated, and the bulk of the Egyptian population originated and resided near the first cataract (on the so called Nubian border) in the Upper Egypt- Lower Nubia.

    "... Butzer suggests that even in Pharaonic times the Delta was under-populated when compared with Upper Egypt and that settlements were highly dispersed." - karl W. Butzer

    https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uch..._hydraulic.pdf

    Today however Lower Egypt is one of the most densely populated regions on Earth. That reversal of the nation's population center from the South along the "Nubians border" to the Delta along the Mediterranean in the north is clearly the result of late and post dynastic Eurasian invasions.

    Alternatively, Egypt was continuously occupied by the same people, who may have gradually changed genetically over time
    No the Cushitic populations who were likely more so along the Rea Sea remained in Northern-East Africa, and that element which has been in place in the region since ancient times has been diluted by foreigners. There is a North-South cline of African genetic affinities in modern day Egypt, and the south is obviously more indigenous and more black African.

    , like every other population on Earth, but whose ancestors were already genetically similar and closely-related to neighboring Levantine populations.
    That makes no sense when there is evidence to suggest that even the "neighboring Levantine populations" whom are non black are also relatively recent populations into the region. Y'all attach soooo much to land mass identity.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    according to anthropologist Dr. C. Brace:
    That is dated, and debunked!




  6. #125
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    @Asante Which modern population (specific ethnic group) most resembles the Ancient Egyptians?

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  8. #126
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    So Asante do you stand by the results of all the studies you are using to debunk other studies? I mean, if you are using Irish's dental studies to debunk Brace, that means you accept Irish's results, right?

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  10. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    @Asante Which modern population (specific ethnic group) most resembles the Ancient Egyptians?
    Easy!

    UNESCO

    The peopling of ancient Kemet and the deciphering of Meroitic script Proceedings of the symposium held in Cairo from 28 January to 3 February 1974


    What we now know about the genetic and physical diversity of black Africans gives context to the interpretations above. The Cushitic African was erroneously considered "Mediterranean" and the Nilotic African was erroneously considered "European" by early racialist (link provided). The Niger-Congo speakers were called "True Negroid", and were ironically the single largest population (over a third) of the Egyptian population based on their own acknowledgement.

    The Niger-Congo speaking populations of Africa today;

    Cushitic speaking populations of Africa today;

    Nilotic speaking populations of South Sudan today;


    On the Niger-Congo case for example there has been a recent discovery of the word "Bantu"(meaning people) in ancient Egypt;



    Here is an ethnic group that has an ancient oral history of coming from ancient "Kemet" meaning the black land (the Greek invaders named it "Egypt). The name "Akan" (like many other African ethnic groups) actually has meaning in Medu Neter ("Egyptian" hieroglyphics) or "language of the Gods";

    Akan - the name of a god
    Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris



    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 10:40 PM.

  11. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    So Asante do you stand by the results of all the studies you are using to debunk other studies? I mean, if you are using Irish's dental studies to debunk Brace, that means you accept Irish's results, right?
    I stand by the conclusive evidence that has been noted in my post with Kathryn Bards and SOY Keita's quotes. Stop, take a breath, acknowledge the ugly (for you) truth, and accept that they were black Africans.

  12. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    Easy!


    The peopling of ancient Kemet and the deciphering of Meroitic script Proceedings of the symposium held in Cairo from 28 January to 3 February 1974


    What we now know about the genetic and physical diversity of black Africans gives context to the interpretations above. The Cushitic African was erroneously considered "Mediterranean" and the Nilotic African was erroneously considered "European" by early racialist (link provided). The Niger-Congo speakers were called "True Negroid", and were ironically the single largest population (over a third) of the Egyptian population based on their own acknowledgement.

    The Niger-Congo speaking populations of Africa today;

    Cushitic speaking populations of Africa today;

    [URL="http://s211.photobucket.com/user/gothouse/media/NiloticEuropean-2.jpg.html"]Nilotic[/URL][/COLOR] speaking populations of South Sudan today;


    On the Niger-Congo case for example there has been a recent discovery of the word "Bantu"(meaning people) in ancient Egypt;



    Here is an ethnic group that has an ancient oral history of coming from ancient "Kemet" meaning the black land (the Greek invaders named it "Egypt). The name "Akan" (like many other African ethnic groups) actually has meaning in Medu Neter ("Egyptian" hieroglyphics) or "language of the Gods";

    Akan - the name of a god
    Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris



    So in your opinion Niger-Congo speakers are the true heirs of Ancient Egypt?

    What is your opinion on the land of Punt? Were they cushites or were they also Niger-Congo speakers?



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  14. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    So in your opinion Niger-Congo speakers are the true heirs of Ancient Egypt?

    What is your opinion on the land of Punt? Were they cushites or were they also Niger-Congo speakers?


    The emphasis on Punt like the general region of "Ethiopia"/"Nubia"/"Ta-Seti" was simply the Homeland of the Niger-Congo speaking family;

    Original homeland of the Bantu up to 1500 A.D
    Dark shading: Possible ultimate origin of the Bantu
    Cross shading: Area of Bantu expansion into Kemet




    Bantu Migration Routes from Kush and the Island of Meroe



    Distribution of Y-DNA (male DNA) haplogroup E1b1a/E-M2 lineage




    The Steatopygia of the queen in the photo is most characteristic of Africans who were said to be remote to the region (Khoisan and Twa pygmies). The Twa or pygmies were actually considered the originators of old Nile Valley civilization and tradition (note that the popular Egyptian deity "Bes" is a Twa). The Twa have been depicted in Nile Valley art despite their distant homelands in West/Central Africa.
    Last edited by Asante; 02-11-2019 at 10:57 PM.

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