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Thread: 2018 Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes - Heavily Critique

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    I was under the impression these are usually Chadic speaking populations in central sub-saharan Africa. R1b-V88 may have popped up in Niger-Congo speaking tribes sporadically, but I didn't think it was all that common, and not so much on the western side of the continent.
    It is also present in Niger-Congo groups as well, and it was not brought in...

    As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene."
    --Gonzalez et al 2013. The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88. Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar;21(3):324-31.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asante View Post
    It is also present in Niger-Congo groups as well, and it was not brought in...

    As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene."
    --Gonzalez et al 2013. The genetic landscape of Equatorial Guinea and the origin and migration routes of the Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88. Eur J Hum Genet. 2013 Mar;21(3):324-31.
    It may or may not be Chadic in origin, my point is that V88 reaches peak frequency in Chadic and other Afro-Asiatic speaking tribes. You'll notice that it declines in even greater frequency to the Niger-Congo speaking regions.

    This recent study had R1b-V88 as the fourth most common Y haplogroup in sampled populations, and none of the evidence would suggest the expansion to be related to Bantu or another Niger-Congo group.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...7249731830437X
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 02-06-2019 at 02:34 AM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    First, I must say that I do not consider the Bible as a reliable source but, most Canaanites were regarded as African/Hamitic invaders who encroached upon the territory of Semites[1]. It fits quite well with the Y-DNA (60% E) and the auDNA (10-20% African) of the Natufians. Furthermore, they showed minor negroid affinities[2].


    Greco-Romans weren't color blind, they were infact extremely racist. They described Egyptians exactly like they described their Ethiopian neighbours[3]. Are you implying that Ethiopians weren't "black" too?
    You're the one who first cited the Bible as evidence, I was simply responding to your misinformation. It's quite clear that "Hamites" in the Bible are, much like "Semites" and "Japhites," another group of West Eurasians who inhabited specific regions or made up specific ethnic groups in the ancient Near East and Mediterranean. Attempts to associate them with modern "races" or entire continents are, at best, misplaced.

    Natufians and later Canaanites were overwhelmingly West Eurasian. Natufians don't share any more recent ancestry with SSA than any other Eurasian group. Your citations of craniometry as evidence for deep ancestry, especially when this evidence clearly contradicts the genomic evidence, doesn't help your arguments.

    And citing ancient descriptions doesn't help much either since, again, it's all relative. We have some realistic sculptures that ancient Egyptians made of themselves from the Old Kingdom, and they look much more like modern Egyptians than Ethiopians.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ArtsBoston.png
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...eumRahotep.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../ff/Khufu2.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...fre_statue.jpg

    Anyway, this is pointless, so I'm going to stop.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    E-V12 is not Negroid. You're mixing location and a people......they're testing people..
    Since when do haplogroups have phenotypes? You also do realize I'm a fellow V12+ and so are many Horners,Sudanese and Sahelians.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    The only thing the Ancient Egyptians have in common with Africa, is that they dwelt on the most eastern part of the continent. Genetically they have no connection to SSA, let alone belong to SSA subclades.
    Where does E-M215 originate? Where did Proto-Afro-Asiatic also originate? Why do Natufians carry E1b1b subclades and also ANA? Why were you the first to use a racist psuedo-scientific term in this thread?

    Op and you are the opposite sides of the same coin.Facts don't mean anything to neither of you which is why I said this is a useless thread and should therefore should be closed.
    Last edited by drobbah; 02-06-2019 at 03:27 AM.

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  8. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    It may or may not be Chadic in origin, my point is that V88 reaches peak frequency in Chadic and other Afro-Asiatic speaking tribes. You'll notice that it declines in even greater frequency to the Niger-Congo speaking regions.
    The Moundang people of Nigeria who are Niger-Congo speakers have the frequency around 70%.


  9. #26
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    Natufians and later Canaanites were overwhelmingly West Eurasian.
    You're misrepresenting my statement. I clearly stated that Natufians were 20% African and that MOST Canaanites were regarded as African/Hamitic invaders, I never said that they were overwhelmingly African. The autosomal DNA of the Natufians and later Canaanites is irrelevant considering that the ancestors of both Natufians and (Genuine) Canaanites were ultimately Africans.

    Natufians don't share any more recent ancestry with SSA than any other Eurasian group.
    Yes, they do. They are (at least) 7% SSA[1].

    And citing ancient descriptions doesn't help much either since, again, it's all relative. We have some realistic sculptures that ancient Egyptians made of themselves from the Old Kingdom, and they look much more like modern Egyptians than Ethiopians.
    Throwing pictures of people of unknown origin and then claiming that they look West Eurasian is indeed relative, quoting Greek authors who actually met and discussed with living Egyptians and who agree that Egyptians were black-skinned and woolly-haired isn't tho.

    [1]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ancestral heterogeneity of ancient Eurasians
    The Natufian sample consisted of 61.2% Arabian, 21.2% Northern African, 10.9% Western Asian, and 6.8% Omotic ancestry (Figure 1F and Table 1).
    Last edited by Shamayim; 02-06-2019 at 03:36 AM.

  10. #27
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    Although I am reasonably confident that modern North Africans will turn out to be the best living representatives of historical ancient North Africans, I think it is unwise to make oneself a hostage to fortune by making so bold a prediction as "the ancient Egyptians were entirely Eurasian" or "The earliest Egyptians were Tropical Africans, related to Nilo-Saharans." Appealing to physical anthropology will get you nowhere here; one person posts a Brace dental study and another counters with some analysis by Keita, and it goes on and on. We live in a humbling age of ancient DNA; the truth will come out eventually and there will be no place for wrong conclusions to hide. The best thing to do is sit tight and wait for the data. It's going to be very exciting when it happens and a lot of people are going to be hilariously disappointed either way.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  12. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Natufians and later Canaanites were overwhelmingly West Eurasian. Natufians don't share any more recent ancestry with SSA than any other Eurasian group. Your citations of craniometry as evidence for deep ancestry, especially when this evidence clearly contradicts the genomic evidence, doesn't help your arguments.






    And citing ancient descriptions doesn't help much either since, again, it's all relative. We have some realistic sculptures that ancient Egyptians made of themselves from the Old Kingdom, and they look much more like modern Egyptians than Ethiopians.
    Yes very subjective;




    Then there is the colossal statue that characterizes the black African nature of the ancient African civilization named as the Sphinx;

    Last edited by Asante; 02-06-2019 at 03:38 AM.

  13. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Although I am reasonably confident that modern North Africans will turn out to be the best living representatives of historical ancient North Africans, I think it is unwise to make oneself a hostage to fortune by making so bold a prediction as "the ancient Egyptians were entirely Eurasian" or "The earliest Egyptians were Tropical Africans, related to Nilo-Saharans." Appealing to physical anthropology will get you nowhere here; one person posts a Brace dental study and another counters with some analysis by Keita, and it goes on and on. We live in a humbling age of ancient DNA; the truth will come out eventually and there will be no place for wrong conclusions to hide. The best thing to do is sit tight and wait for the data. It's going to be very exciting when it happens and a lot of people are going to be hilariously disappointed either way.
    No the consist anthropological research regarding ancient Egypt's biological affinities has been proven since the 90's. Here I'll post it for you all again;

    "There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas."..."must be placed in the context of hypotheses informed by archaeological, linguistic, geographic and other data. In such contexts, the physical anthropological evidence indicates that early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection, influenced by culture and geography." ("Nancy C. Lovell, " Egyptians, physical anthropology of," in Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, ed. Kathryn A. Bard and Steven Blake Shubert, ( London and New York: Routledge, 1999). pp 328-332)

    So what this "authority" on ancient Egypt is essentially saying is that the information ranging from anthropological, linguistic, archaeological etc all consistently point to narrative of the civilization being black African in origin. If a study finds that the ancient Egyptians had close dental affinity with say Afghans, what linguistic or archaeological information will support that anthropological work? None! When it comes to inner Africa being the source of the civilization you have all of the evidence indicating a narrative. It's as simple as that.

    Also you say that they look like modern North Africans....That's what is called "wishful thinking". Notice how the complete opposite (closest affinities south of the Sahara) is indicated in the passage above, and genetic evidence confirms it as well.

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  15. #30
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    @ Asante, ease up on the large pics and quotes!

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