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Thread: España y Portugal en modelos simples

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by rxavierflima View Post
    Agora eu e a elisabete temos o mesmo de Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1. Talvez fosse melhor manter o Levant_BA_North por causa dela lol

    Dito isto, acho que este modelo faz bem mais sentido!
    I'm not quite sure, in the previous model you both (aswell as Lusitano) had similar scores of "Collegno+Levant", in this model you all have roughly the same "Collegno" aswell, so it seems relatively accurate, although I should add that, were I to use Guanche11 instead of Iberomaurusian, the Collegno score would drop for everyone. For example:

    [1] "distance%=1.7363"

    rxavierflima

    Hallstatt_Bylany,40
    Iberia_BA,29
    Roman_Collegno_o1,18.4
    Guanche,12.6

    So that's ~18.5% in this model VS ~23.5% in the previous one in your case. I can rerun this one, if people find it better, but the trends will still be the same, which is what I was looking for. On the other hand the missus and I score really low Collegno, but I guess that's not too unexpected when looking at the PCA plot, we're more western than any of you.
    And Elisabete has an impressive Hallstatt score! I was expecting her to have a lot, but not nearly 50%.

    Don't know if there's any regional shenanigans being responsible for this, or if it's just each of us having our own personal variation. It's tempting to say people from the interior might tend to score lower Collegno, but these are too few samples to make a proper case..besides my missus' family is from a village some 10km away from northern Extremadura, but their regional results are pretty different, so maybe not.




    Quote Originally Posted by rxavierflima View Post
    Curioso. Então isto não tem razão de ser?


    (Podes responder em inglês!)
    Well that might be mostly a cultural thing, Celts were a culture (or language fmaily) moreso than an actual people, even England_IA and Hallstatt_Bylany appear to be pretty different. Whether that cultural connection is significant and deep, or rather something that was (re)developed ever since archaeology proved the Celtic connection (Celtic revival), I don't know. It might be a stretch, at least in the case of Asturias. Personally all these revival movements seem a bit forced to me
    Last edited by Ruderico; 02-13-2019 at 11:01 AM.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1000AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
    Gaul_Velaux_IA,39.8
    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

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  3. #12
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    Lo de los Guanches bajando el porcentaje Romano es porque los Guanches son una mezcla Europea(Prob Romanos o Griegos)+Norte_African+Medio_Oriente (Fenicios o algo más).

    [1] "distance%=3.6298"

    Guanche:guanche2_scaled

    Globular_Amphora,41.8
    Iberomaurusian,22.7
    Armenia_ChL,18.5
    Anatolia_ChL,8.3
    Yoruba,7.2
    Clovis,1.4
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.1
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Iberia_ChL,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,0

    [1] "distance%=3.3064"

    Guanche:guanche8_scaled

    Globular_Amphora,41.4
    Anatolia_ChL,21.5
    Iberomaurusian,16.5
    Armenia_ChL,11.7
    Yoruba,8.5
    Clovis,0.4
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Iberia_ChL,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,0

    [1] "distance%=2.7716"

    Guanche:guanche12_scaled

    Anatolia_ChL,31.1
    Iberomaurusian,25.2
    Iberia_ChL,18.3
    Globular_Amphora,14.3

    Yoruba,5.4
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,4.5
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,1.2
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Clovis,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Armenia_ChL,0

    PD: A mi me pueden responder en Portugues; Ingles o Español; me da igual.
    Last edited by jeanL; 02-13-2019 at 11:13 AM.

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Lo de los Guanches bajando el porcentaje Romano es porque los Guanches son una mezcla Europea(Prob Romanos o Griegos)+Norte_African+Medio_Oriente (Fenicios o algo más).

    [1] "distance%=3.6298"

    Guanche:guanche2_scaled

    Globular_Amphora,41.8
    Iberomaurusian,22.7
    Armenia_ChL,18.5
    Anatolia_ChL,8.3
    Yoruba,7.2
    Clovis,1.4
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0.1
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Iberia_ChL,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,0

    [1] "distance%=3.3064"

    Guanche:guanche8_scaled

    Globular_Amphora,41.4
    Anatolia_ChL,21.5
    Iberomaurusian,16.5
    Armenia_ChL,11.7
    Yoruba,8.5
    Clovis,0.4
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Iberia_ChL,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,0
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,0

    [1] "distance%=2.7716"

    Guanche:guanche12_scaled

    Anatolia_ChL,31.1
    Iberomaurusian,25.2
    Iberia_ChL,18.3
    Globular_Amphora,14.3

    Yoruba,5.4
    Tanzania_Luxmanda_3000BP,4.5
    Yamnaya_Ukraine,1.2
    Blatterhole_HG,0
    Clovis,0
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0
    Malawi_Fingira_2500BP,0
    South_Africa_2000BP,0
    Armenia_ChL,0

    PD: A mi me pueden responder en Portugues; Ingles o Español; me da igual.
    Yes, they also lower the amount of references with steppe because Guanche11 himself/herself scored some 10% of it.

    [1] "distance%=3.0651 / distance=0.030651"

    Guanche:guanche11_scaled

    Iberomaurusian 37.75
    Barcin_N 36.80
    Yamnaya_Samara 11.60
    Levant_N 10.10
    Yoruba 3.75


    The reason I didn't use it initially because the uniquely NA source of ancestry is Iberomaurusian, so that alone would be enough to see the trend
    Besides it looks suspiciously similar to Moroccan:MCA9, which I'm not sure is plausible. Guanche5 sample is a bit rubbish and unreliable, for example, so I played it safe

    [1] "distance%=2.5308 / distance=0.025308"

    Moroccan:MCA9

    Iberomaurusian 40.6
    Barcin_N 34.5
    Levant_N 10.9
    Yamnaya_Samara 9.7
    Yoruba 4.3
    Last edited by Ruderico; 02-13-2019 at 11:37 AM.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1000AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
    Gaul_Velaux_IA,39.8
    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

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  7. #14
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    Muy interesante y por lo demás acorde con lo que vamos descubriendo dado que la mayor parte de los mitos ya están bastante enterrados.

    Por cierto que como español con un perfil genético bastante "aportuguesado" me gustaría saber donde me sitúa el gráfico.

    Oficialmente sólo tengo un antepasado portugués (Sande) y el resto sobre el papel son todos andaluces pero sospecho que casi todas las ramas provienen originariamente del tercio occidental de Iberia: Galicia, Asturias, Leon, Portugal y Extremadura.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 02-13-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Muy interesante y por lo demás acorde con lo que vamos descubriendo dado que la mayor parte de los mitos ya están bastante enterrados.

    Por cierto que como español con un perfil genético bastante "aportuguesado" me gustaría saber donde me sitúa el gráfico.

    Oficialmente sólo tengo un antepasado portugués (Sande) y el resto sobre el papel son todos andaluces pero sospecho que casi todas las ramas provienen originariamente del tercio occidental de Iberia: Galicia, Asturias, Leon, Portugal y Extremadura.
    Se estás realmente interessado em estar plotado nestes PCAs, e conhecer os teus resultados nestes modelos (ou outros), só tens de pedir as tuas coordenadas Global 25 ao Davidski, do Eurogenes. Penso que o preço seja 12USD aproximadamente. O nMonte e PAST3 são freeware e simlpes de usar.

    Pessoalmente penso que o preço é justo para o potencial de modelação que esta ferramenta tem. No entanto, como podes ver pelos modelos individuais, os teus resultados podem ser diferentes da referencia Andaluza. O meu é virtualmente igual ao de Castilla y León, a minha família é essencialmente do Douro e da Beira Alta


    Há mais users Espanhóis aqui no Anthrogenica que têm as suas coordenadas do Global 25 (TeneTana, Rabai, etc), mas como não as conheço, infelizmente não pude modelar nem plotar no gráfico



    Edit: Sande? Pode ser topónimo. A minha linhagem materna é de Sande, em Marco de Canaveses (ano ~1750)
    Edit2: Hum...provavelmente não. https://pt.geneanet.org/nomes-de-familia/SANDE
    Last edited by Ruderico; 02-13-2019 at 01:55 PM.
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    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
    Gaul_Velaux_IA,39.8
    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Se estás realmente interessado em estar plotado nestes PCAs, e conhecer os teus resultados nestes modelos (ou outros), só tens de pedir as tuas coordenadas Global 25 ao Davidski, do Eurogenes. Penso que o preço seja 12USD aproximadamente. O nMonte e PAST3 são freeware e simlpes de usar.

    Pessoalmente penso que o preço é justo para o potencial de modelação que esta ferramenta tem. No entanto, como podes ver pelos modelos individuais, os teus resultados podem ser diferentes da referencia Andaluza. O meu é virtualmente igual ao de Castilla y León, a minha família é essencialmente do Douro e da Beira Alta


    Há mais users Espanhóis aqui no Anthrogenica que têm as suas coordenadas do Global 25 (TeneTana, Rabai, etc), mas como não as conheço, infelizmente não pude modelar nem plotar no gráfico



    Edit: Sande? Pode ser topónimo. A minha linhagem materna é de Sande, em Marco de Canaveses (ano ~1750)
    Edit2: Hum...provavelmente não. https://pt.geneanet.org/nomes-de-familia/SANDE
    Conozoco de su existencia porque aparece en los registros de nacimiento de todos sus nietos (es el abuelo materno). Su nombre en los registros es "Manuel Tabadeo" y su lugar de origen "Chande - Reino de Portugal". Tras horas buscando alguna ciudad o provincia portuguesa llamada "Chande" con google maps, me dí cuenta de que "Chande" sería la transcripción fonética que haría un funcionario andaluz del topónimo "Sande" pronunciado en portugués.

    Abrí un hilo hace tiempo en el foro portugués preguntando por ello:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....me-Portugu%EAs


    También creo que "Tabadeo" es algún tipo de transcripción fonética porque ambos antepasados nacieron en el siglo XVIII y muy probablemente eran analfabetos.
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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    Conozoco de su existencia porque aparece en los registros de nacimiento de todos sus nietos (es el abuelo materno). Su nombre en los registros es "Manuel Tabadeo" y su lugar de origen "Chande - Reino de Portugal". Tras horas buscando alguna ciudad o provincia portuguesa llamada "Chande" con google maps, me dí cuenta de que "Chande" sería la transcripción fonética que haría un funcionario andaluz del topónimo "Sande" pronunciado en portugués.

    Abrí un hilo hace tiempo en el foro portugués preguntando por ello:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....me-Portugu%EAs


    También creo que "Tabadeo" es algún tipo de transcripción fonética porque ambos antepasados nacieron en el siglo XVIII y muy probablemente eran analfabetos.
    Também acontecia que por vezes o pároco não conhecia o lugar, então escrevia mal. A minha linhagem paterna era de Fontoura, em Valença (ao lado de Tuy, Pontevedra), mas foi escrito como "Frontoura" ou "Frontora" em Viseu quando se casou. Arcebispado (de Braga) também foi mal escrito, por alguma razão. Este padre nunca acertava a letra r

    Se estiveres interessado em procurar, tens registos paroquiais em https://tombo.pt/ e informação geográfica em http://atlas.fcsh.unl.pt/cartoweb35/atlas.php.
    Tens alguns lugares chamados Sande, todos no Norte:
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...9!4d-8.3931474
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...6!4d-8.3620667
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...1!4d-8.1762214

    Tabadeu/Tabadeo nunca vi. Em geneanet.pt só aparecem já em Sevilha e Málaga, devem ser teus familiares https://pt.geneanet.org/nomes-de-familia/TABADEO
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1000AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

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    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
    Gaul_Velaux_IA,39.8
    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

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  15. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Também acontecia que por vezes o pároco não conhecia o lugar, então escrevia mal. A minha linhagem paterna era de Fontoura, em Valença (ao lado de Tuy, Pontevedra), mas foi escrito como "Frontoura" ou "Frontora" em Viseu quando se casou. Arcebispado (de Braga) também foi mal escrito, por alguma razão. Este padre nunca acertava a letra r

    Se estiveres interessado em procurar, tens registos paroquiais em https://tombo.pt/ e informação geográfica em http://atlas.fcsh.unl.pt/cartoweb35/atlas.php.
    Tens alguns lugares chamados Sande, todos no Norte:
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...9!4d-8.3931474
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...6!4d-8.3620667
    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sa...1!4d-8.1762214

    Tabadeu/Tabadeo nunca vi. Em geneanet.pt só aparecem já em Sevilha e Málaga, devem ser teus familiares https://pt.geneanet.org/nomes-de-familia/TABADEO

    He leído cosas en los registros que te hacen sangrar los ojos.

    Y si, esos son mis antepasados.

    Usando google, sólo tengo constancia de otro Tabadeo, un ingeniero norteamericano que visitó el CERN en 1972

    http://cds.cern.ch/record/2141458?ln=es

    Probablemente otra mala transcripción, aunque quién sabe, a lo mejor es un tío lejano.
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  17. #19
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    Voltando aos modelos, se um dia tiveres as tuas coordenadas de Global 25 terei todo o gosto em fazer estes modelos, ou outros, para ti
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1000AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
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    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
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    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

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  19. #20
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    So, with the new samples from the Olalde paper being avaliable on G25 I decided to update the previous simple model with a new one. Since we now have IA samples from Iberia, I got rid of the Iberia_BA and Hallstatt references and replaced them with both Iberia_North_IA (Celtiberians).
    The paper states:
    The impact of mobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evident in 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CE site of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who show a shift from the Iron Age population in the direction of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig. 1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarter of their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The same shift is also observed in present-day Iberians outside the Basque area and is plausibly a consequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impact and, according to our data, a substantial genetic impact too.
    So we're aiming at roughly 25% Roman ancestry. We also know that the North African impact in west Iberia is some 8-12%.
    Let's see what the model gives:


    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.036"
    
             Portuguese
    
    Celtiberian,69.2
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,19.4
    Guanche,11.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=0.8919"
    
             Spanish_Extremadura
    
    Celtiberian,66.8
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,21
    Guanche,12.2
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.4194"
    
             Spanish_Galicia
    
    Celtiberian,70
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,19.6
    Guanche,10.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.339"
    
             Spanish_Cantabria
    
    Celtiberian,81.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,13
    Guanche,5.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=0.999"
    
             Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    
    Celtiberian,72.8
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,16.8
    Guanche,10.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=0.8002"
    
             Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    
    Celtiberian,76.4
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,18.6
    Guanche,5
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.0186"
    
             Spanish_Andalucia
    
    Celtiberian,70.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,22.6
    Guanche,6.8
    
    
    [1] "distance%=0.9077"
    
             Spanish_Murcia
    
    Celtiberian,68.2
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,24.2
    Guanche,7.6
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.3097"
    
             Spanish_Valencia
    
    Celtiberian,81.4
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,15.4
    Guanche,3.2
    
    
    [1] "distance%=0.951"
    
             Spanish_Cataluna
    
    Celtiberian,77
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,16.2
    Guanche,6.8
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.0951"
    
             Spanish_Aragon
    
    Celtiberian,77.8
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,15.6
    Guanche,6.6
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.0975"
    
             Spanish_Baleares
    
    Celtiberian,69.2
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,27.2
    Guanche,3.6
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.0256"
    
             Spanish_Canarias
    
    Celtiberian,64.2
    Guanche,19.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,16.2





    And below, the same individual Portuguese samples as before. You can check the G25 PCA plot again below. The dataset includes all modern West Eurasians in G25, and all the post-IA samples from Olalde 2019 (plus one CA).


    Again, for reference:
    Ruderico - North-centre
    MrsRuderico - East (next to northern Extremadura)
    rxavierflima - Northwest
    elisabetenjoaquim - West
    Lusitano - Centre

    Code:
    [1] "distance%=1.765"
    
             Ruderico
    
    Celtiberian,76.8
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,14.8
    Guanche,8.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.7545"
    
             MrsRuderico
    
    Celtiberian,73
    Guanche,13.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,13.4
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.4588"
    
             rxavierflima
    
    Celtiberian,69.4
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,21
    Guanche,9.6
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.2422"
    
             elisabetenjoaquim
    
    Celtiberian,68.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,19.4
    Guanche,12
    
    
    [1] "distance%=1.4175"
    
             Lusitano
    
    Celtiberian,69.2
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,19.2
    Guanche,11.6


    Is it perfect? No, it's probably off by a few % here and there (Guanche might be slightly inflated in some references, for example) but for such a simple model it's good enough for me not to lose sleep over it. The fits generally improve, mine in particularly did so almost dramatically, so I'm very happy.

    There's also possibly a layer of Germanic-related ancestry missing, using the Visigothic samples from the paper, or from older ones, generally gives everyone a very significant amount, but I'm assuming this is mostly a statistical artifact rather than actual large amounts of Germanic ancestry, otherwise Olalde would have mentioned it in his paper, no?
    My guess is that some of it is lying around, but I'm finding it hard to estimate with these tools. If one reference could be found that gets modelled in small amounts here and there, being higher in a few individuals who plot closer to France it'd be perfect, because my suspicion is that some individuals would benefit from it. Alternatively I could use Celtiberians and Iberians separately, and this will mirror what happened with the Iberia_BA+Hallstatt model, but I don't find that as interesting or informative at this stage.



    I can rerun these with all IA samples from Iberia if anyone wants to see the result
    Last edited by Ruderico; 03-21-2019 at 10:51 AM.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1000AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.5077"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA,41.2
    Gaul_Velaux_IA,39.8
    Berber_EMA,11.6
    Roman_Colonial,7.4

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Ruderico For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (03-20-2019),  JMcB (03-21-2019),  Lusitano (06-23-2019),  sweuro (03-20-2019)

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