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Thread: Dutch Longobard? About Scandic and/or Baltic-Slavic influences.....

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    I already told you that you seem to have some Swedish ancestors when you got a big chunk of Corded Ware Baltic in some ancient run. It may be something from middle Ages...
    Longobards got Slavic in their way to Italy through Hungary. It has nothing to do with Dutch, I think.
    You appear very confident in interpreting mixtures of closely related and overlapping populations with nMonte.

    I have done some analyses on Finn's sample, based on the W-Eurasian PCA. This dataset is simpler than the Global 25 PCA, so I find it natural to look at the W_Eurasian data before analyzing the Global 25.
    I am cautious in interpreting the results of my model:
    I see the Germany_Medieval as a proxy for a larger more or less Germanic group which also includes the Longobards; the less admixed Longobard samples can hardly or not be discriminated from Germany_Medieval.
    Next to this "Germanic" group, I find indications of small Eastern admixtures (Migration Period?). I have collected these in a group which I labeled "Avar_Hungary_Szolad'". Finn has been less cautious in his interpretation.
    I see no reason to suspect Slavic admixture in Longobards.
    The Swedish in the model is mainly because Finn is interested in his Northern ancestry. It is hard to get sufficient Northern samples if only because many samples are from RISE, which are not UDG treated (dixit Generalissimo).

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    You appear very confident in interpreting mixtures of closely related and overlapping populations with nMonte.

    I have done some analyses on Finn's sample, based on the W-Eurasian PCA. This dataset is simpler than the Global 25 PCA, so I find it natural to look at the W_Eurasian data before analyzing the Global 25.
    I am cautious in interpreting the results of my model:
    I see the Germany_Medieval as a proxy for a larger more or less Germanic group which also includes the Longobards; the less admixed Longobard samples can hardly or not be discriminated from Germany_Medieval.
    Next to this "Germanic" group, I find indications of small Eastern admixtures (Migration Period?). I have collected these in a group which I labeled "Avar_Hungary_Szolad'". Finn has been less cautious in his interpretation.
    I see no reason to suspect Slavic admixture in Longobards.
    The Swedish in the model is mainly because Finn is interested in his Northern ancestry. It is hard to get sufficient Northern samples if only because many samples are from RISE, which are not UDG treated (dixit Generalissimo).
    My point was that Finn in his ancestry has Baltic component which other Dutch don't have and that may point to Swedish connection. That's all, nothing very confident...
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    My point was that Finn in his ancestry has Baltic component which other Dutch don't have and that may point to Swedish connection. That's all, nothing very confident...
    Yes at least to a connection with NE Europe. For example in the Finn Mom K36 report of Lukasz Pommern pops up.

    The last few hundred years there are no know connections. The Baltic connection is indeed not general in the Netherlands.

    But I guess in the case with auDNA that's not there in let's say five or even ten generations before, this must be a kind of component in the general North Dutch gene pool. May father has also the Szolad/ Balto-Slavic connection so I guess it's something of the North Dutch gene pool as a whole. Because otherwise such a chunk would not be generated.

    This gene pool is mostly shaken up during the big migration, after that it were mostly NW Germans. But those NW Germans affected my fathers ancestry more than my mothers. I suspect that she is more indigenous.

  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    My point was that Finn in his ancestry has Baltic component which other Dutch don't have and that may point to Swedish connection. That's all, nothing very confident...
    Thanks for the clarification.
    But my question remains: why are you so confident about your model with a Baltic admixture. I assume that it is only a small admixture. Did you run several alternative models which all failed? For instance a model without Baltic but with WHG?

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    You appear very confident in interpreting mixtures of closely related and overlapping populations with nMonte.

    I have done some analyses on Finn's sample, based on the W-Eurasian PCA. This dataset is simpler than the Global 25 PCA, so I find it natural to look at the W_Eurasian data before analyzing the Global 25.
    I am cautious in interpreting the results of my model:
    I see the Germany_Medieval as a proxy for a larger more or less Germanic group which also includes the Longobards; the less admixed Longobard samples can hardly or not be discriminated from Germany_Medieval.
    Next to this "Germanic" group, I find indications of small Eastern admixtures (Migration Period?). I have collected these in a group which I labeled "Avar_Hungary_Szolad'". Finn has been less cautious in his interpretation.
    I see no reason to suspect Slavic admixture in Longobards.
    The Swedish in the model is mainly because Finn is interested in his Northern ancestry. It is hard to get sufficient Northern samples if only because many samples are from RISE, which are not UDG treated (dixit Generalissimo).
    Your caution is may be right. On the other hand the difference between Norwegians and Swedish lays in a higher amount of Baltic, so o more North Eastern component. That's well known I guess.

    I suppose that the Swedes, in the old days called the Suiones and the Suebi were close knit (wiki):

    The form Suiones appears in the Roman author Tacitus's Germania. A closely similar form, Sweon(as), is found in Old English and in the Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum of Adam of Bremen about the Hamburg-Bremen archbishops who are denoted Sueones.
    Most scholars agree that Suiones and the attested Germanic forms of the name derive from the same Proto-Indo-European reflexive pronominal root, *s(w)e, as the Latin suus. The word must have meant "one's own (tribesmen)". In modern Scandinavian, the same root appears in words such as svåger (brother-in-law) and svägerska (sister-in-law). The same root and original meaning is found in the ethnonym of the Germanic tribe Suebi, preserved to this day in the name Schwaben (Swabia). The details of the phonetic development vary between different proposals.
    Last edited by Finn; 02-09-2019 at 05:48 PM.

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  10. #16
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    I suppose that even the Danes have had a more eastward connection than the Jutes:

    Wiki:

    The Danes were a North Germanic tribe inhabiting southern Scandinavia, including the area now comprising Denmark proper, and the Scanian provinces of modern southern Sweden, during the Nordic Iron Age and the Viking Age.
    Related to the figures I see that in the West Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, samples no Avar Szolad kind of admixture. Rise174 had clearly a Avar-Szolad kind of input (like nowadays Swedish). Big chance that the Germanic tribes that were connected with the Baltic area had such kind of influences.
    Last edited by Finn; 02-10-2019 at 07:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    Thanks for the clarification.
    But my question remains: why are you so confident about your model with a Baltic admixture. I assume that it is only a small admixture. Did you run several alternative models which all failed? For instance a model without Baltic but with WHG?
    I am not expert in this like you.
    He persistently gets about 5% of Avar Hungary Szolad, when average Dutch don't any and when Medieval Anglo-Saxon, German and Longobard samples are included. Also he gets Baltic_BA in much higher proportions than Dutch average: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5x3hfqafprxmazy/finn.png?dl=0
    I agree that source for this is some WHG rich population which does not match composition of Baltic populations that have beside WHG also EHG.
    Last edited by ph2ter; 02-10-2019 at 12:01 AM.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes at least to a connection with NE Europe. For example in the Finn Mom K36 report of Lukasz Pommern pops up.

    The last few hundred years there are no know connections. The Baltic connection is indeed not general in the Netherlands.

    But I guess in the case with auDNA that's not there in let's say five or even ten generations before, this must be a kind of component in the general North Dutch gene pool. May father has also the Szolad/ Balto-Slavic connection so I guess it's something of the North Dutch gene pool as a whole. Because otherwise such a chunk would not be generated.

    This gene pool is mostly shaken up during the big migration, after that it were mostly NW Germans. But those NW Germans affected my fathers ancestry more than my mothers. I suspect that she is more indigenous.
    Europeans are genetically similar. From north-west to north-east. I don't question my partial NW European origins. I don't have it, despite all available tests show this. Why questioning partial North-Eastern ancestry? It is not like you are similar to American Indians or sub-Saharan Africans.
    Last edited by Volat; 02-10-2019 at 12:28 AM.

  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volat View Post
    Europeans are genetically similar. From north-west to north-east. I don't question my partial NW European origins. I don't have it, despite all available tests show this. Why questioning partial North-Eastern ancestry? It is not like you are similar to American Indians or sub-Saharan Africans.
    It's not questioning as such it's more a question what this implicates....

    On average it's not there in the Dutch population.

    In the end it's a question what's the connection. Was it a Germanic tribe that brought it in during migration time? Or is there a kind of HG relationship between the old Ertebølle like HG around the North Sea and the Baltic sea?

    About the last option see the analysis of Ph2ter.....
    Last edited by Finn; 02-10-2019 at 05:34 AM.

  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    I am not expert in this like you.
    He persistently gets about 5% of Avar Hungary Szolad, when average Dutch don't any and when Medieval Anglo-Saxon, German and Longobard samples are included. Also he gets Baltic_BA in much higher proportions than Dutch average: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5x3hfqafprxmazy/finn.png?dl=0
    I agree that source for this is some WHG rich population which does not match composition of Baltic populations that have beside WHG also EHG.

    Thanks for the analysis Ph2ter!

    The HG connection is less likely know....Because the Baltic component is more (mother) or less (father) there in both sides of my family, from slightly different area's, I guess it's not a family thing but something of the gene pool of the outmost North Dutch.

    What could be besides a Germanic tribe influence be another option....????

    What is also obvious is that my distances, my fits, in the G25 models you present, are pretty large. Like if a component is missing...

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