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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #991
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    100 pages of discussion and relevant ancient DNA paper is not yet published. Is it a record?

    Also, it seems that there are two papers: Moots's paper and another one? I am getting confused.

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  3. #992
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    [quote][quote]Originally Posted by kolgeh
    Iron age Italian populations - including Etruscans and Italic tribes - were very homogeneous and predominantly R1b-U152+. Romans on the other hand autosomally were closer to Aegean populations and Y dna wise were very diverse including R1b-U152, R1b-P312(xU152), R1b-U106, T, G2a, I1, E1b, J2a, J2b and J1 haplogroups.[quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I hope this is reliable as this close to what I had expected. I think it is foolhardy to pin the IE vector on R1b-L23 or R1a-M417 any more.
    You're making a fool of yourself.

    The new Y-haplogroups that arrived in Italy during the Roman period weren't associated with the spread of Italic languages into Italy, because that happened much earlier. In fact, a good proportion of the migrants belonging to T, G2a, J2a, J2b and J1 may have spoken Semitic, Hurrian and other non-Indo-European languages.

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  5. #993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    ...



    You're making a fool of yourself.

    The new Y-haplogroups that arrived in Italy during the Roman period weren't associated with the spread of Italic languages into Italy, because that happened much earlier. In fact, a good proportion of the migrants belonging to T, G2a, J2a, J2b and J1 may have spoken Semitic, Hurrian and other non-Indo-European languages.
    I doubt it. I think it is better not not be wedded to any particular combination at present. The results from Anatolia, Greece, Swat and now the Roman period are not indicating an R1b-L23 or R1a-M417 IE vector for now.

  6. #994
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    Everything very interesting... I was wondering to which subclades did the U152 samples belong... I was wondering if Etruscan U152 and Italic U152 belonged to two different subclades (e.g. Z56 for Etruscans and L2 for Italics)... I was wondering if R1b in general popped up also before Early Bronze Age... Too many questions open... We really need to wait for the paper...

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  8. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nonsense.

    Bronze Age Sicily was quite diverse, but it can't explain the genetic structure of mainland Italians. That's because mainland Italians are the result of a massive genetic shift across the Italian Peninsula from the early Italic period to the Roman period, and the people causing this shift mostly came from the eastern Mediterranean, including from the Near East.

    It might surprise you to learn that I don't have a deep interest in Italian population history. The only reason I waste time on these sorts of debates is because I have to defend myself when strange people like you attack me for being honest and objective in regards to this topic.

    I honestly couldn't care less if Italians have significant Near Eastern ancestry dating to the Roman and Medieval periods. But that's sure what it looks like, so I'm not going to pretend otherwise so that you like me.
    Foggia in mainland South Italy is best modeled as a mix of Barcin, CHG, WHG et Yamnaya in the recent Viking paper. Tuscany and Bergamo are even more Yamnaya/WHG and less CHG.

    If you think that the CHG arrived in the middle ages, then I don't even need to answer you.

  9. #996
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    Foggia in mainland South Italy is best modeled as a mix of Barcin, CHG, WHG et Yamnaya in the recent Viking paper.
    You can't model Southern Italians with just those components. You need something Natufian-rich to create the best fit. The same is true for Aegean Greeks. This has been looked at from every which-a-way at this point. Modern East Mediterranean people have Levantine ancestry and many have North African ancestry, too. The potential sources for this are numerous and we don't know the details just yet.

    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 08-23-2019 at 06:02 AM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Thansk for the info.
    How many Etruscan samples are there in this study you mention? What are the Y haplogroups of the Etruscans? Do you think (after sequencing more Etruscan samples from different sites) that an elite minority (core) of Etruscans could have non R1b haplogroups like T, with ancestry from Eastern Mediterranean regions? And the Italics are locals of the region and descendants of Central European and Northern Italian Bell Beakers? And the minority Early Iron Age Etruscans absorbed some of the Italic people? What do you think if in the Stanford paper (or in another future study on Etruscans) haplogroups like T are found among Iron Age Etruscans?
    Most of Etruscan samples are low-quality and R1b1a1b+. You should wait for the paper to get answer to these questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by vitellia View Post
    Do you know what specific clade of R1b-U152+? R1b-U106 in Roman times is quite surprising.
    They have different subclades.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crow View Post
    What about E1b samples?
    Two E1b1b1b1 Roman samples are from southern Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    How many samples were R1b-U106?!? At first I thought you meant the two U106+ "Roman Gladiators" from Eboracum/York...
    In this sample collection only one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    Foggia in mainland South Italy is best modeled as a mix of Barcin, CHG, WHG et Yamnaya in the recent Viking paper. Tuscany and Bergamo are even more Yamnaya/WHG and less CHG.

    If you think that the CHG arrived in the middle ages, then I don't even need to answer you.
    You seem to be confused. Look at Extended Data Figure 6 more carefully (page 34).

    The Medieval Foggia set is successfully modeled only after adding Anatolia_MLBA (prob 0.4) or barely successfully after adding Armenia_MLBA (prob 0.12).

    So even these models suggest recent gene flow from the Near East and can certainly be improved with higher quality and more relevant reference samples.

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  15. #999
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    As expected the PIE question drives further towards increased complexity.
    Of the few attested and remaining non-IE languages of Europe, Etruscan now also is confirmed to be non-V88 R1b (like Basque is).
    What are classified as early Italic tribes seems to be on a cline of non-IE Etruscans and another population.
    The more similar cultures classified as early Italic are to Etruscans, the more like is that they are assimilated Etruscan.
    So one question is, how reliable the classification of Italic (IE) is for those tribes.

    If anyone asks himself: No I'm not suggesting a very late arrival of Italic langue, for that Italic and Greek are not sufficiently related (Celtic in between). But if Etruscans are the purest R1b population there, like the Basques are in Spain... then it should be very difficult to turn things around and say these were originally IE people that were assimilated by Etruscans and Basque.
    The necessary action that must be taken looks like to be excluding some main R1b clades from IE-genesis (like V88 before).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    You can't model Southern Italians with just those components. You need something Natufian-rich to create the best fit. The same is true for Aegean Greeks. This has been looked at from every which-a-way at this point. Modern East Mediterranean people have Levantine ancestry and many have North African ancestry, too. The potential sources for this are numerous and we don't know the details just yet.

    How do Italian_Bergamo and Italian_Tuscan come out with these components?

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