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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #801
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    Lets wait for the paper before speculate too much.
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    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish+36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

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  3. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    You're making arguments against things I never said. Anyway, there is the chance some U152 was brought in by Germanics. Only samples across a broad period will answer that. Haplogroups aren't all that unique to groups as we get into the LBA and IA. Certainly not during the Medieval period.

    The use of Saxon alleles had to do with them being the only ancient Germans of any kind of quality to do this work. More stuff will be coming at some point to tackle these issues.
    Most R1b-U152 was of Bronze Age or Iron Age origins in northern Italy and Tuscany. At any rate "Germanics" such as Ostrogoths or Longobards had very little to do with Z36 or Z56 until they absorbed other populations in areas around the Alps.
    Last edited by Cascio; 06-09-2019 at 04:41 PM.

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  5. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Most R1b-U152 was of Bronze Age or Iron Age origins in northern Italy and Tuscany. At any rate "Germanics" such as Ostrogoths or Longobards had very little to do with Z36 or Z56 until they absorbed other populations in areas around the Alps.
    And what makes you believe Lombards and Ostrogoths weren't mixed when they entered Italy?

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  7. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    And what makes you believe Lombards and Ostrogoths weren't mixed when they entered Italy?
    Of course they were... like any other ethnicity, but I will require a lot of evidence to believe there is a strong Germanic element (Ostrogoth/Longobard,etc) in Northern Italy and Tuscany.
    Last edited by Cascio; 06-09-2019 at 05:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    You're making arguments against things I never said. Anyway, there is the chance some U152 was brought in by Germanics. Only samples across a broad period will answer that. Haplogroups aren't all that unique to groups as we get into the LBA and IA. Certainly not during the Medieval period.

    The use of Saxon alleles had to do with them being the only ancient Germans of any kind of quality to do this work. More stuff will be coming at some point to tackle these issues.
    The only way one can consider that germanics where in the alps prior to the Roman times is if one thinks the celts in central and southern germany are germanics.
    The "capital" of the celts was glauberg near modern Frankfurt.

    So my question is , do you think these celts are Germanics?

    Romans never allowed Germans south of the Danube river unless they where mercenaries of Roman armies
    Last edited by vettor; 06-09-2019 at 06:05 PM.

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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  11. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    You're making arguments against things I never said. Anyway, there is the chance some U152 was brought in by Germanics. Only samples across a broad period will answer that. Haplogroups aren't all that unique to groups as we get into the LBA and IA. Certainly not during the Medieval period.

    The use of Saxon alleles had to do with them being the only ancient Germans of any kind of quality to do this work. More stuff will be coming at some point to tackle these issues.
    Some yes, but of course not all.

    The oldest R1b U152s were found in the Bronze Age: one in Hungary (Budapest ca. 2335 BC) and the other in southern Germany (dated to about 2550 BC?) and belonged to the Bell Beaker, if memory serves me well.

    At that time there were no Germanic people in southern Germany or in Hungary. The first U152s may have arrived in Italy with the Bell Beaker or later movements. I think that it can be safely assumed.

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  13. #807
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    There were also migrations in the reverse direction, from Italy to southern Germany. U152 is particularly common in southwest Germany and peaks in the same area (upper Rhine, Alsace) where J2 peaks at around 8% too. It seems that at least some of the U152 spread northwards with the Romans or later.

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  15. #808
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nive1526 View Post
    There were also migrations in the reverse direction, from Italy to southern Germany. U152 is particularly common in southwest Germany and peaks in the same area (upper Rhine, Alsace) where J2 peaks at around 8% too. It seems that at least some of the U152 spread northwards with the Romans or later.
    The big takeaway is that U152's main subclade L2 was already widespread (Poland, S.France, Bavaria, Czech Republic) by the Bell Beaker period ~2300 BC:

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?h...0064090775&z=5

    L2 has not been found in the P312 samples from Parma nor in Sicily, although both lack calls for U152 itself. So yes, some U152 should have made its way into Italy during the Bronze Age, but it also looks like it was much more common in areas like the Czech Republic where it is only a small minority today.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  17. #809
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    http://xn--c1acc6aafa1c.xn--p1ai/?page_id=31433

    Then came the turn of Europe. Alexander Ravené (University of Pavia, Italy) spoke about the study of the ancient and modern genomes of Italians. Differences in the composition of the ancestral components in the genomes of residents of different regions were found. The final genetic landscape of Italy is formed as a result of migrations and mixes of various genetic sources, among which the genetic component from the Caucasus was found.

    Translated with Google.

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  19. #810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    And what makes you believe Lombards and Ostrogoths weren't mixed when they entered Italy?
    Weren't Longobards from Collegno autosomally Scandinavian?

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