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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    I fully agree, but in my opinion the Corsicans from the hinterland are genetically close to the Romans (from Latium) of the Iron Age. I know that phenotypes are not considered seriously on Anthrogenica but I can tell you that blue eyes and fair hair are not rare in some parts of Corsica, especially in the mountains.
    Indeed, the nobility of Corsica was composed of families from Tuscany.
    Thank you. Yes I also did the risky business of mention phenotype in my earlier post. I am not surprised - I used to think that they shared genetics with Sardinians. But they are actual much closer to Central Italians and North Italians. I compared on Poi's K36 Calculator for fits. And all North Italian population Samples + Central fitted better with Corsican than Sardinia.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    I fully agree, but in my opinion the Corsicans from the hinterland are genetically close to the Romans (from Latium) of the Iron Age. I know that phenotypes are not considered seriously on Anthrogenica but I can tell you that blue eyes and fair hair are not rare in some parts of Corsica, especially in the mountains.
    Indeed, the nobility of Corsica was composed of families from Tuscany.
    The lead researcher of this Roman study appears to be a PhD student of anthropology. Perhaps we will get a supplement regarding the phenotypical information of the Romans, but based on the clustering of these samples I would strongly expect to see a population comprised of mainly brown hair and eyes with perhaps a minority of blonde hair and blue eyes amongst the "North Italians" of the Republic (all being well within the European skin spectrum, of course). Remember that although the centroid of clustering for the Iron Age Romans of Latium was like that of a Tuscan, not a single one of those samples genuinely clustered like a Tuscan (and by extension, your Coriscan friend).

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  5. #43
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    Cross posting from another thread since most of it's content seem more relevant here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    I am indeed saying that the pre-Greek inhabitants of Southern Italy might already have fallen within the Eastern Mediterranean continuum. If this is true, then distinguishing Hellenic and Italic strands of ancestry will be an arduous task. The working assumption here is that the ~40% South Italian-like samples dated back to the pre-Imperial era are representative of the peninsula's ancient Oscan-speaking peoples. I have been hinting at that possibility for a few months now, and I am getting the distinct impression that there might be more truth to this educated guess than I had initially thought.

    To be clear, I continue to think that the earliest Italic speakers, that is to say the Proto-Italic speech community (which some Italian linguists persist in denying it ever existed) is bound to resemble the bulk of ~60% or so North Italian-like samples dated to the Iron Age and Republican period. If the Oscan-speaking peoples truly are similar to the Greeks without having any genuine Greek ancestry, then it only makes sense to assume that the Eastern Mediterranean profile was widespread long before the arrival of the Greeks and that the initial incursion of Italic languages was in many ways similar to the arrival of Indo-European speech in Bronze Age Greece.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86
    I see. But if indeed the Oscan-speaking people wouldn't resemble the Proto-Italic speech community, and rather resemble East Mediterranean people genetically, then we have to account for the fact that they (Oscan-speakers) should also resemble the Umbrians (and the Latins) in origin, given the two languages diverged from a single proto language - Osco-Umbrian - around the 1st century BC. And in any case, given the Latins also spoke an extremely close language to the Osco-Umbrians, and the Proto-Italic speech community as a whole is commonly dated to have entered the Italian peninsula circa the 19th century BC, from the North East, wouldn't that make more sense that any geneflow which might have been brought by any speakers of any Italic language would actually be North-shifting?

    I mean for the Oscans to resemble IA Greeks/E. Mediterranean people, you'd have to have a separate later origin for them coming into the region, speaking an Italic language closely related to Umbrian (practically originating from it). I just can't see this happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    There lies the real puzzle, in my opinion. Even if I am wrong at some level, and the Eastern Mediterranean profile turns out to be entirely associated with the coming of the Greeks - which isn't entirely out of the question, after all scores of Roman authors endlessly railed against the increased Greek presence in the Latium and heaped scorn and criticism on what they perceived to be the wholesale Hellenisation and de-Latinisation of Rome at the expense of the Roman natives during the Imperial era, and at least some of the upcoming samples are definitely bound to be Greek - the possibility that the North Italian-like samples might be a better proxy for Roman ancestry is worthy of consideration and could have very important ramifications for the ethnogenesis of Western Jewry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86
    I think dates here are important. The crucial time which you refer to, IA to Republican era, is actually dated to 700 BC to 20 BC:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo
    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86
    By 700 BC, it is more than possible for Greeks from Magna Graecia to penetrate all the way to Central Italy. If it was the Early IA, let's say 11th-12th centuries BC, I'd agree there's a possibility Southern Italians somehow had pre-Greek settlement East Med-like genetic profile. But given the dates, it is infinitely more plausible any Greek-like samples in Central Italy would be from Magna Graecians.

    We also don't know how many of these samples are after the Pyrrhic War (that is, after the early 3rd century BC), which still puts it right in the middle of the 700-20BC dating. After that war, pretty much all Magna Graecia (except for Sicily) became part of the Roman Republic, thus opening the possibility for many more Greek-like samples to appear in Central Italy and Rome.

    In fact, the fact that during the period in between those dates, you still have ~60% North-Italian like samples in Central Italy, only further weakens the possibility that pre-Magna Graecia South Italians (or any Italians), be it Oscans or Samnites, were East Mediterranean-like.

    As for majority of Central Italians still being North Italian-like and the ethnogenesis of Western Jewry, the date is too early I'm afraid. Given that during the Imperial era, Central Italians already heavily plotted as Aegeans/Sicilians, as described by Ryukendo:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo
    IMPERIAL PERIOD
    Dense cluster centroid between Greeks, Cypriots, South Italians/Sicilians, and Syrians, closest to Sicilians. Long tail stretching from central cluster to Syrians and Iraqi Jews. Couple of Northern-shifted samples overlapping N Italy, France, Spain.
    Iran_N increases further, Levant N again sporadic and inhomogeneous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86
    Jews have began arriving to Rome around the late 2nd century BC, but most certainly lived there by the 1st century BC - which is right at the end of the dated period above (700-20BC) and much closer to the Imperial period, when all samples were Sicilian-like. And in any case, the Jewish community in Rome grew to become the largest one in the Italian peninsula around the 1st century AD, in the Imperial period.

    So I don't believe Romans they'd convert when they lived there would still be North Italian-like, again making the scenario of 50% N. Italian-like, 50% Levantine model less likely.
    I have to agree with Erik here. The Latial Culture which spanned from 1000-580 BC had strong roots in the Proto-Villanovan Culture, which was an Urnfield Culture (not to be confused with the Villanovan Culture). The Proto-Villanovan Culture reached all the way to N.E. Sicily where the Siculi spoke a language that was probably Latin-like. Being that modern N.Italians and S.Italians are relatively distant populations from one another, I think it is more likely that the N.Italian like 60% represent the "native" Italics and the 40% represent a mix of previously N.Italian like locals mixed with populations coming from the East as early as the Orientalizing Period.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  7. #44
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    in addendum to #1
    this paper is also to-be-published in future

    Rome wasn't built in a day: biomolecular analysis of ancient Romans
    FLAVIO DE ANGELIS1, CRISTINA MARTÍNEZ-LABARGA1, ANDERS GÖTHERSTRÖM2, VALENTINA GAZZANIGA4, PAOLA CATALANO3 and OLGA RICKARDS1.
    http://meeting.physanth.org/program/...nt-romans.html
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek&SouthItalian 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%Greek/Albania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I read an article once where they stated they thought elevated levels of J2 Ydna and other various related Subclades in Ravenna area were due to its time as Byzantine capital in North.. Also Venice and Subsequent Venetian Empire population were originally formed from retreating Byzantine population as far as ethogenesis.
    Venice formed from veneti from Treviso and Padua and everyone in between these cities and the lagoon.

    It was the furthest western part of the eastern roman empire of Byzantium

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Corsicans should be considered Italians in my mening. Their genetics and language are much closer to Italians than French.
    Even the Great Napoleone Buonaparte had Italian ancestry from Tuscany.



    Source about black death killing 75% of Population?

    I am not sure they actually impacted the general Tuscan so much. Tuscany and Italy had a big population and the Germanic invaders were few.

    Maybe in small villages in the Mountains but not on Mainland Tuscany. You can even see the difference today that people from the Tuscan plains have darker complex than the ones from villages in the mountains.

    I think that earlier Celtic and Germanic migrations had bigger impact. During the Fall of Rome for example. A big part of North Italy was Gaul-Celtic in the early roman times.
    there was suppose to be a land bridge linking Sardinia to Corsica to isle of Elba to Tuscany

    Corsicans where initially with etruscans /tuscans, but became part of the republic of Genoa for very many centuries

    also, Nice ( home of Garibaldi ) and some part of the french riviera was Genoese fro a very long time

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Presentation by Hannah Moots. No pictures, not allowed. Paper coming out in a couple of months, done with Pinhasi and Pritchard.
    134 genomes, spanning 12000s BP to Renaissance and enlightenment. 0.5-3.5X coverage....

    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.

    ...
    AFTER
    Resemble modern central Italians.

    Thanks for your first hand summary of the Moots presentation. When you talk about north Italy, central Italy and south Italy what exactly are we talking about? Do you know which samples we are talking about? Because north Italians are quite varied and the centroid of central Italians is more southern than the Tuscans, as well highlighted by the study of Raveane et al.


    Last edited by Taurus; 02-10-2019 at 08:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurus View Post

    Strange that Umbria and Romagna are more South than Tuscany. Specially when you think of the fact that Tuscany was populated by the Etruscan's who are said to be from Anatolia in first place( They do resemble ancestors of Villanova culture in culture tho').

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Specially when you think of the fact that Tuscany was populated by the Etruscan's who are said to be from Anatolia in first place( They do resemble ancestors of Villanova culture in culture tho').
    No DNA involved here, though for what it's worth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15125046

    Abstract
    Seven Etruscan skulls were found in Corneto Tarquinia in the years 1881 and 1882 and were given as present to Rostock's anatomical collection in 1882. The origin of the Etruscans who were contemporary with the Celts is not yet clear; according to Herodotus they had emigrated from Lydia in Asia Minor to Italy. To fit the Etruscan skulls into an ethnological grid they were compared with skeletal remains of the first thousand years B.C. E. All skulls were found to be male; their age ranged from 20 to 60 years, with an average age of about thirty. A comparison of the median sagittal outlines of the Etruscan skulls and the contemporary Hallstatt-Celtic skulls from North Bavaria showed that the former were shorter and lower. Maximum skull length, minimum frontal breadth, ear bregma height, bizygomatical breadth and orbital breadth of the Etruscan skulls were statistically significantly less developed compared to Hallstatt-Celtics from North Bavaria. In comparison to other contemporary skeletal remains the Etruscan skulls had no similarities in common with Hallstatt-Celtic skulls from North Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg but rather with Hallstatt-Celtic skulls from Hallstatt in Austria. Compared to chronologically adjacent skeletal remains the Etruscan skulls did not show similarities with Early Bronze Age skulls from Moravia but with Latène-Celtic skulls from Manching in South Bavaria. Due to the similarities of the Etruscan skulls with some Celtic skulls from South Bavaria and Austria, it seems more likely that the Etruscans were original inhabitants of Etruria than immigrants.

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  18. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Marx View Post
    No DNA involved here, though for what it's worth: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15125046
    Thank you for posting! Like I said - Just looking at Villonova culture and Etruscan + Celtic you see similarities. The R1b-U152 Y-dna branch is said to be a Italo-celtic branch who is common in North Italy and Tuscany. Could be from both Celtic invaders + Early Italics(Villonova) and maybe also Etruscans.

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