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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitellia View Post
    This is very interesting. I think that R1b-U152+ came starting from the Bell Beaker in Italy. Are there samples of Urnfield cultures already analysed?
    I don't know anything about samples of Urnfield culture.

  2. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I'm not saying that L23 was not involved. I think it was involved (as was M417) but with a later expansion.

    Also is that IE attestation historical?

    Which of the following periods would that be in? Or in the 1000 year gap?

    "BRONZE AGE (EARLY)
    Overlaps modern-day Sardinia, Iran_N percentage declines, WHG and EEF increases
    (Note that this represents a Europeanisation of the gene pool!) Very homogeneous.

    IRON AGE TO REPUBLICAN PERIOD (700-20BC)
    Note: Separated from previous period by 1000 year gap.
    Fewer samples, of those that exist 60% overlap with North Italy, 40% overlap with South Italy and Sicily, centroid of overall cluster in central Italy but no samples occur there, very wide spread.
    EHG appears, Levant N Appears for the first time, sporadic and inhomogeneous distribution, Iran_N increases further.

    IMPERIAL PERIOD
    Dense cluster centroid between Greeks, Cypriots, South Italians/Sicilians, and Syrians, closest to Sicilians. Long tail stretching from central cluster to Syrians and Iraqi Jews. Couple of Northern-shifted samples overlapping N Italy, France, Spain.
    Iran_N increases further, Levant N again sporadic and inhomogeneous."
    The IE languages may have arrived during the 1000 year gap.

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  4. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Written proof of the IE languages of the Umbrians, Venetics, Lepontics, Samnites etc. exist from before the time of the Roman expansion.
    Thanks. Is this the oldest? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praeneste_fibula

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I don't not know if it is "the" oldest. Certainly there are Umbrian inscriptions that are also dated to the seventh century BC.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  8. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I think it's the other way: Etruscans were the élites in many parts of Italy. Ancient chronicles say that Etruscans conquered many Umbrians' lands and became lords.
    are you referring to this

    Pliny (3, ii2) states that the Etruscans conquered 300 cities from the Umbrians (Trecenta eorum oppida Tusci debellasse reperiuntur.). This clearly refers to the ‘Landnahme’. This statement is confirmed by the river Umbro (mod. Ombrone), which flows in its full length in Etruscan territory. The river will have given its name to the people, or vice versa. Anyhow, the river will have flowed in Umbrian territory; so the Etruscans must have pushed the Umbrians out.

    If so, then the oldest Italic peoples in central and south Italy can only be Umbrians


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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  10. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    Kind of sarcasm?

    Obviously no: it seems more likely that the real Etruscan élites were something different and the vast majority of population was R1b and, probably, Italic. If the samples of Etruscans came from actual Nobiliary Etruscan tombs (and there are many in Central Italy) and they are R1b, so then Etruscans were vastly R1b. But if not, then an Etruscan commoner could also be an Italic one under Etruscan lords.

    Don't forget that Etruscans had technological and cultural superiority on IE speaking communities in Italy. They had military forces that gave them the power to fight Carthaginians and Greeks. Rome itself was dominated by Etruscans for many centuries and until Augustus, Rome wasn't anything else than an Etruscan city where Latin was spoken. After Augustus, Rome was more like a Hellenistic city where Latin was spoken. The only weakness of Etruscans was their love for City-states and the wars between them. Probably, if Etruscan cities had a threat like Persians for Greeks, they would have developed a different unitarian conscience... but history isn't built with ifs and buts.

    But I insist on thinking about the U152 subclades: if Etruscans and Italics had differents clades, so the discussion about their origins can do a step forward. If not, then it's really difficult to explain how IE and non-IE tribes in Italy where more or less identical not only autosomally but also on uniparental markers.
    but they also colonised corsica to a degree
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641

    I think the need to establish what we want from etruscan dna....an early or late model, because earlier than 500BC we seem to have lost etruscan ancient markers


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  11. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    are you referring to this

    Pliny (3, ii2) states that the Etruscans conquered 300 cities from the Umbrians (Trecenta eorum oppida Tusci debellasse reperiuntur.). This clearly refers to the ‘Landnahme’. This statement is confirmed by the river Umbro (mod. Ombrone), which flows in its full length in Etruscan territory. The river will have given its name to the people, or vice versa. Anyhow, the river will have flowed in Umbrian territory; so the Etruscans must have pushed the Umbrians out.

    If so, then the oldest Italic peoples in central and south Italy can only be Umbrians
    Of course I was referring to Pliny. Eorum in the text is referred to the Umbri in the line before (in the text).

  12. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    but they also colonised corsica to a degree
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641

    I think the need to establish what we want from etruscan dna....an early or late model, because earlier than 500BC we seem to have lost etruscan ancient markers
    They founded emporia in Corsica. Probably, the only place heavily inhabited by Etruscans was Aleria.

  13. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolgeh View Post
    Iron age Italian populations - including Etruscans and Italic tribes - were very homogeneous and predominantly R1b-U152+. Romans on the other hand autosomally were closer to Aegean populations and Y dna wise were very diverse including R1b-U152, R1b-P312(xU152), R1b-U106, T, G2a, I1, E1b, J2a, J2b and J1 haplogroups.
    Quote Originally Posted by kolgeh View Post
    I should add one thing. Etruscan sample size is small and sequencing more samples from different sites can change many things.
    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Thansk for the info.

    Is this study you mention the study of Hannah Moots from Stanford or from another source?

    How many Etruscan samples are there in this study you mention? What are the Y haplogroups of the Etruscans? Do you think (after sequencing more Etruscan samples from different sites) that an elite minority (core) of Etruscans could have non R1b haplogroups like T, with ancestry from Eastern Mediterranean regions? And the Italics are locals of the region and descendants of Central European and Northern Italian Bell Beakers? And the minority Early Iron Age Etruscans absorbed some of the Italic people? What do you think if in the Stanford paper (or in another future study on Etruscans) haplogroups like T are found among Iron Age Etruscans?
    Quote Originally Posted by kolgeh View Post
    Most of Etruscan samples are low-quality and R1b1a1b+. You should wait for the paper to get answer to these questions.
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If pre-Roman Italics (attested IE speakers) were also R-L23, then of course they already spoke IE before the Roman period and before the arrival of all those other haplogroups. The way things are looking now, future testing of continental Celts will also produce something like 100% R-L23. So, the suggestion that the non-R1b Romans were the first to bring IE languages to the Italian peninsula is extremely foolhardy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I think it's the other way: Etruscans were the élites in many parts of Italy. Ancient chronicles say that Etruscans conquered many Umbrians' lands and became lords.
    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Fair enough, then IE immigrants were potentially enriched with those relevant R1b clades due to elite dominance by non-IE Etruscans.
    If the Celtic people (from whom is 100% proven to speak an Indo European language) had almost 100% R1b (and if the Italic people had also almost 100% R1b), is it then not logical to assume that the original Etruscans (from the first Etruscan migrations in the Early Iron Age as described in the historical records) had non R1b haplogroups with ancestry from Eastern Mediterranean?
    And like described in the historical records, the Etruscans(speaking non IE language) were minority elites(with haplogroups like T?) who conquered the locations were Italic people lived since the Bronze Age, and in time some of the local Italic tribes got absorbed and assimilated by the Etruscans?
    The Italic people had the same Bronze Age ancestors(Central European Bell Beakers) such as the Celtic people.

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  15. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    are you referring to this

    Pliny (3, ii2) states that the Etruscans conquered 300 cities from the Umbrians (Trecenta eorum oppida Tusci debellasse reperiuntur.). This clearly refers to the ‘Landnahme’. This statement is confirmed by the river Umbro (mod. Ombrone), which flows in its full length in Etruscan territory. The river will have given its name to the people, or vice versa. Anyhow, the river will have flowed in Umbrian territory; so the Etruscans must have pushed the Umbrians out.

    If so, then the oldest Italic peoples in central and south Italy can only be Umbrians
    Your are right, the oldest burials are from the Umbrians. At the border between southern Umbria and Latium, in Terni, the oldest Umbrian burials are from the 10th century B.C. In northern Italy (northern Marche and Romagna) most of the Umbrian burials date to the 6th century B.C., they arrived there later The first historical area of the Umbrians was along the river Nera or Nahar, at the border between southern Umbria and northern Latium.

    Perhaps the Italic tribes were descendants of the Umbrians, it's probable. But the classic story about them being descendants of the Sabines, which in turn were descendants of the Umbrians, is not very logical. There are way more necropolis of the South Picenes, Samnites, etc, than those of the Sabines. There's still no actual inscription from the Sabines, and their necropolis are not very old, most of them date back to the 6th century B.C.

    In the area of the South Picenes, Marche and northern Abruzzo, they discover a couple of necropolis each year. Some of these are quite big and very old, even 7th century B.C. Each of these osco-umbrians tribes must have been in much greater number than the Sabines, and there are their inscriptions that are very old, sometimes they date back to the 6th century B.C.

    They weren't necessarily a product of the Sabines.

    I think one must not rely too much on the Roman historians.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 08-23-2019 at 07:22 PM.

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