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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #1001
    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    You can't model Southern Italians with just those components. You need something Natufian-rich to create the best fit. The same is true for Aegean Greeks. This has been looked at from every which-a-way at this point. Modern East Mediterranean people have Levantine ancestry and many have North African ancestry, too. The potential sources for this are numerous and we don't know the details just yet.

    OK 6-8% which is vastly different from "massive population shift" suggested by General.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    You seem to be confused. Look at Extended Data Figure 6 more carefully (page 34).

    The Medieval Foggia set is successfully modeled only after adding Anatolia_MLBA (prob 0.4) or barely successfully after adding Armenia_MLBA (prob 0.12).

    So even these models suggest recent gene flow from the Near East and can certainly be improved with higher quality and more relevant reference samples.
    Middle Bronze Age is recent now?

    You went from middle ages to 2000 BC now.

    You first argued that "everyone in Italy was like Bell Beaker Parma or Iron Age Etruscan", while also "forgetting" about Minoan like Bronze Sicily. Now this.

    Make up your mind!
    Last edited by Assiette mix; 08-23-2019 at 09:36 AM.

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  3. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    OK 6-8% which is vastly different from "massive population shift" suggested by General.



    Middle Bronze Age is recent now?

    You went from middle ages to 2000 BC now.

    You first argued that "everyone in Italy was like Bell Beaker Parma or Iron Age Etruscan", while also "forgetting" about Minoan like Bronze Sicily. Now this.

    Make up your mind!
    Anatolian and Armenian Bronze age components need to be seen as core of Eastern Mediterenaean peoples who settled in Italy over the Roman/Byzantine era (for instance Armenians , Anatolian Greeks )

    Maybe you're right , so
    What does make you think that migrations from Anatolian /Levant to Italy took place over the Bronze age or over the chalcocithic , rather than over historical period ? (We have many historical sources proving these recents inputs)

  4. #1003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    OK 6-8% which is vastly different from "massive population shift" suggested by General.

    Middle Bronze Age is recent now?

    You went from middle ages to 2000 BC now.

    You first argued that "everyone in Italy was like Bell Beaker Parma or Iron Age Etruscan", while also "forgetting" about Minoan like Bronze Sicily. Now this.

    Make up your mind!
    Well, neither Natufians nor Hittites migrated to Italy after the Iron Age. Obviously, these are just proxies for the real sources of gene flow.

    Using Natufians underestimates their impact, because they were only partly Natufian-like, while using Anatolia_MLBA probably overestimates it, because Anatolia_MLBA doesn't have much Levant ancestry.

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  6. #1004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Assiette mix View Post
    OK 6-8% which is vastly different from "massive population shift" suggested by General.



    Middle Bronze Age is recent now?

    You went from middle ages to 2000 BC now.

    You first argued that "everyone in Italy was like Bell Beaker Parma or Iron Age Etruscan", while also "forgetting" about Minoan like Bronze Sicily. Now this.

    Make up your mind!
    No offense, but I think part of the issue is that you don't understand what the models are showing
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
    mtDNA H20 - Monica Vieira, b. circa 1700 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Hidden Content
    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content

    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

    Ruderico

    Iberia_IA+Hallstatt,82.2
    Berber_EMA,10
    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

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  8. #1005
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    Quote Originally Posted by kolgeh View Post
    Most of Etruscan samples are low-quality and R1b1a1b+. You should wait for the paper to get answer to these questions.
    So, the Etruscans weren't M269, but they were like that Kura Araxes sample???

  9. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    As expected the PIE question drives further towards increased complexity.
    Of the few attested and remaining non-IE languages of Europe, Etruscan now also is confirmed to be non-V88 R1b (like Basque is).
    What are classified as early Italic tribes seems to be on a cline of non-IE Etruscans and another population.
    The more similar cultures classified as early Italic are to Etruscans, the more like is that they are assimilated Etruscan.
    So one question is, how reliable the classification of Italic (IE) is for those tribes.

    If anyone asks himself: No I'm not suggesting a very late arrival of Italic langue, for that Italic and Greek are not sufficiently related (Celtic in between). But if Etruscans are the purest R1b population there, like the Basques are in Spain... then it should be very difficult to turn things around and say these were originally IE people that were assimilated by Etruscans and Basque.
    The necessary action that must be taken looks like to be excluding some main R1b clades from IE-genesis (like V88 before).
    I think it's the other way: Etruscans were the Úlites in many parts of Italy. Ancient chronicles say that Etruscans conquered many Umbrians' lands and became lords.

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  11. #1007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    So, the Etruscans weren't M269, but they were like that Kura Araxes sample???
    R1b1a1b is R1b-M269 in 2019 version of ISOGG tree. The only high-quality Etruscan sample is R1b-U152+.
    Last edited by kolgeh; 08-23-2019 at 10:37 AM.

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  13. #1008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I think it's the other way: Etruscans were the Úlites in many parts of Italy. Ancient chronicles say that Etruscans conquered many Umbrians' lands and became lords.
    Fair enough, then IE immigrants were potentially enriched with those relevant R1b clades due to elite dominance by non-IE Etruscans.

  14. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I doubt it. I think it is better not not be wedded to any particular combination at present. The results from Anatolia, Greece, Swat and now the Roman period are not indicating an R1b-L23 or R1a-M417 IE vector for now.
    If pre-Roman Italics (attested IE speakers) were also R-L23, then of course they already spoke IE before the Roman period and before the arrival of all those other haplogroups. The way things are looking now, future testing of continental Celts will also produce something like 100% R-L23. So, the suggestion that the non-R1b Romans were the first to bring IE languages to the Italian peninsula is extremely foolhardy.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  16. #1010
    Quote Originally Posted by Bleach View Post
    Anatolian and Armenian Bronze age components need to be seen as core of Eastern Mediterenaean peoples who settled in Italy over the Roman/Byzantine era (for instance Armenians , Anatolian Greeks )

    Maybe you're right , so
    What does make you think that migrations from Anatolian /Levant to Italy took place over the Bronze age or over the chalcocithic , rather than over historical period ? (We have many historical sources proving these recents inputs)
    We have Greek and Roman samples with such ancestries from ancient Iberia from the beginning. But keep believing that everyone in Italy was like Bell Beaker Parma like Generalissimo says.

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