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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Perhaps they've encouraged the relatively less affected Northern regions to resettle in the rest of Italy, thus bringing Northern Italians to resettle in Central Italy. At the same time, the Southern parts of the Italian peninsula, still under Byzantine rule, was resettled by Hellenic people from the rest of the Byzantine Empire.

    It's just a theory, but I'm open now to pretty much anything after this new findings.
    That fits what Paul the Deacon states about the Longobards assimilating every people they conquered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I can't see how they could have a significant impact because Rome and its immediate vicinity were never conquered or settled by the Langobards, the most important Germanic settlers of early medieval Italy.
    Before the lombards came to Italy, the goths had arrived , these ostrogoths capital was Ravenna

    Conquest of Italy by the Goths (488–493)

    An agreement was reached between Zeno and Theoderic, stipulating that Theoderic, if victorious, was to rule in Italy as the emperor's representative.[11] Theoderic with his people set out from Moesia in the autumn of 488, passed through Dalmatia and crossed the Julian Alps into Italy in late August 489. The first confrontation with the army of Odoacer was at the river Isonzo (the battle of Isonzo) on August 28. Odoacer was defeated and withdrew towards Verona, where a month later another battle was fought, resulting in a bloody, but crushing, Gothic victory.[12]


    The lombards arrived in 568 in italy , having to conquer the goths in their path

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    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Before the lombards came to Italy, the goths had arrived , these ostrogoths capital was Ravenna

    Conquest of Italy by the Goths (488–493)

    An agreement was reached between Zeno and Theoderic, stipulating that Theoderic, if victorious, was to rule in Italy as the emperor's representative.[11] Theoderic with his people set out from Moesia in the autumn of 488, passed through Dalmatia and crossed the Julian Alps into Italy in late August 489. The first confrontation with the army of Odoacer was at the river Isonzo (the battle of Isonzo) on August 28. Odoacer was defeated and withdrew towards Verona, where a month later another battle was fought, resulting in a bloody, but crushing, Gothic victory.[12]


    The lombards arrived in 568 in italy , having to conquer the goths in their path
    The Byzantines broke the back of the Ostrogoths in Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Before the lombards came to Italy, the goths had arrived , these ostrogoths capital was Ravenna

    Conquest of Italy by the Goths (488–493)

    An agreement was reached between Zeno and Theoderic, stipulating that Theoderic, if victorious, was to rule in Italy as the emperor's representative.[11] Theoderic with his people set out from Moesia in the autumn of 488, passed through Dalmatia and crossed the Julian Alps into Italy in late August 489. The first confrontation with the army of Odoacer was at the river Isonzo (the battle of Isonzo) on August 28. Odoacer was defeated and withdrew towards Verona, where a month later another battle was fought, resulting in a bloody, but crushing, Gothic victory.[12]


    The lombards arrived in 568 in italy , having to conquer the goths in their path
    Belisarius defeated the Goths on behalf of the East-Roman Empire. According to contemporary authors the Goth simply "marched off" afterwards, and we have no idea where to. Few years after the Byzantine Rule over Italy was restored the Longobards invaded and took Italy, but not the Ravenna Exarchate, Rome and surroundings and the extreme southern parts. Those remained in East-Roman hands. Ravenna eventually went to Lombard rule, the rest remained independent from the Lombards. Which might have been part of the deep origins of both the papal states and the Kingdom of the two Sicilies.

    Contemporaneous authors state that the Gothic wars left Italy massively depopulated. Erik's theory of repopulation should result in a Greek related pocket in the area of Ravenna. Can we see that nowadays?
    Last edited by epoch; 02-09-2019 at 08:42 PM.

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    Talking about migration patterns within Italy, one of the estimates from IBD tracts of course, has been that there wasn't much of it after about 2300 YBP. In theory, ruling out much shuffling during late antiquity (or even high imperial Rome).

    For instance: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiolog...o.1001555.s004 and https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...65536.full.pdf.

    "On the other hand, we find that France and the Italian and Iberian peninsulas have the lowest rates of genetic common ancestry in the last 1,500 years (other than Turkey and Cyprus), and are the regions of continental Europe thought to have been least affected by the Slavic and Hunnic migrations. These regions were, however, moved into by Germanic tribes (e.g., the Goths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals), which suggests that perhaps the Germanic migrations/invasions of these regions entailed a smaller degree of population replacement than the Slavic and/or Hunnic, or perhaps that the Germanic groups were less genealogically cohesive. This is consistent with the argument that the Slavs moved into relatively depopulated areas, while Gothic “migrations” may have been takeovers by small groups of extant populations.

    In addition to the very few genetic common ancestors that Italians share both with each other and with other Europeans, we have seen significant modern substructure within Italy (i.e., Figure 2) that predates most of this common ancestry, and estimate that most of the common ancestry shared between Italy and other populations is older than about 2,300 years (Figure S16). Also recall that most populations show no substructure with regards to the number of blocks shared with Italians, implying that the common ancestors other populations share with Italy predate divisions within these other populations. This suggests significant old substructure and large population sizes within Italy, strong enough that different groups within Italy share as little recent common ancestry as other distinct, modern-day countries, substructure that was not homogenized during the migration period. These patterns could also reflect in part geographic isolation within Italy as well as a long history of settlement of Italy from diverse sources.

    In contrast to Italy, the rate of sharing of IBD within the Iberian peninsula is similar to that within other populations in Europe. There is furthermore much less evidence of substructure within our Iberian samples than within the Italians, as shown in Figure S2. This suggests that the reduced rate of shared ancestry is due to geographic isolation (by distance and/or the Pyrenees) rather than long-term stable substructure within the peninsula.
    "

    Of course, it's highly possible that this isn't correct. It would not be the first time that dates have been under / over shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post

    Now since the Aegean/Sicilian cluster of Imperial Romans seems to give credibility to the Roman ethnogenesis myth of them descending from Greeks (Trojans), all bets are off. My bet? After the Gothic War in the 6th century, when the East Roman Empire recaptured the Italian peninsula, there have been substantial destruction in most urban centers in the Italian peninsula. 5 years after Justinian died, the Lombards occupied most of Italy but the Southern tip (Calabria, Puglia and Sicily). Perhaps they've encouraged the relatively less affected Northern regions to resettle in the rest of Italy, thus bringing Northern Italians to resettle in Central Italy. At the same time, the Southern parts of the Italian peninsula, still under Byzantine rule, was resettled by Hellenic people from the rest of the Byzantine Empire.

    It's just a theory, but I'm open now to pretty much anything after this new findings.
    The Byzantine Empire also held a large part of central and northeast Italy, ie the Duchy of Rome and on the Adriatic side of central and northern Italy, the famous Exarchate of Ravenna with the adjoining Pentapolis, ie all the land from the Po Delta down to Ancona.

    Byzantine-held Perugia and its immediate vicinity linked Byzantium's Roman and Ravennate territories in central Italy. Venice was Byzantine.

    This central band of Byzantine territory separated the main Lombard/Langobard Kingdom based on Pavia from the independent Lombard duchies of Spoleto and Benevento.

    In the late 8th century the Franks overran all of north and central Italy (except Venice) down to Rome itself. The Papacy was granted the former Byzantine lands between Rome and Ravenna.

    These Byzantine and Frankish periods may have encouraged migrations which may support your theory.
    Last edited by Cascio; 02-09-2019 at 09:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Talking about migration patterns within Italy, one of the estimates from IBD tracts of course, has been that there wasn't much of it after about 2300 YBP. In theory, ruling out much shuffling during late antiquity (or even high imperial Rome).
    I second that and suggest reading The Geography of Recent Genetic Ancestry across Europe

    You can skip straight to "The Signal of History" from the "Discussion" heading and read from there. Make sure to check figures 5 and 3 in the process.
    That's basically like a cheatsheet of what's to come for not only Italians, but a lot more Europeans in general, when their territories will get tested extensively too eventually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The Byzantine also held a large part of central and northeast Italy, ie the Duchy of Rome and on the Adriatic side of central and northern Italy, the famous Exarchate of Ravenna with the adjoining Pentapolis, ie all the land from the Po Delta down to Ancona.
    Byzantine-held Perugia and its immediate vicinity linked Byzantium's Roman and Ravennate territories.

    This central band of Byzantine territory separated the main Lombard/Langobard Kingdom based on Pavia from the independent Lombard duchies of Spoleto and Benevento.

    In the late 8th century the Franks overran all of north and central Italy (except Venice) down to Rome itself.
    Indeed, but the Gothic War devastated much of the Italian peninsula even before the Lombards took over. It could be that the Byzantines themselves used rural populations from nearby locations in Italy itself or from more Northern regions, less affected areas in Italy to populate Central Italy, and South Italy also received some of it, only when the Byzantines were left with the Southern parts from the 8th century onward, more Hellenic populations arrived to these locations, keeping them Hellenic-like genetically speaking.

    In anyway, the fact that there's a genetic continuity in North Italy plus North Italy-like samples were found in Central Italy at least until the IA migrations changed that, have to be accounted for. Any Germanic geneflow would surely affect North Italy, even more than Central Italy, and we wouldn't have such relative autosomal continuity in the North.
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Belisarius defeated the Goths on behalf of the East-Roman Empire. According to contemporary authors the Goth simply "marched off" afterwards, and we have no idea where to. Few years after the Byzantine Rule over Italy was restored the Longobards invaded and took Italy, but not the Ravenna Exarchate, Rome and surroundings and the extreme southern parts. Those remained in East-Roman hands. Ravenna eventually went to Lombard rule, the rest remained independent from the Lombards. Which might have been part of the deep origins of both the papal states and the Kingdom of the two Sicilies.

    Contemporaneous authors state that the Gothic wars left Italy massively depopulated. Erik's theory of repopulation should result in a Greek related pocket in the area of Ravenna. Can we see that nowadays?
    interesting then that zeno the byzantine emperor made a pact/agreement with Theodoric the goth leader before hand ( as I noted above )

    Theodoric was born in Pannonia in 454 as the son of king Theodemir, a Germanic Amali nobleman, and his concubine Ereleuva. From 461 to 471, Theoderic grew up as a hostage in Constantinople, received a privileged education under imperial direction, and succeeded his father as leader of the Pannonian Ostrogoths in 473.[4] Settling his people in lower Moesia, Theoderic came into conflict with Thracian Ostrogoths led by Theodoric Strabo, whom he eventually supplanted, uniting the peoples in 484. Emperor Zeno subsequently gave him the title of Patrician, Vir gloriosus, and the office of Magister militum (master of the soldiers), and even appointed him as consul. Seeking further gains, Theoderic frequently ravaged the provinces of the Eastern Roman Empire, eventually threatening Constantinople itself. In 488, Emperor Zeno ordered Theoderic to overthrow the Germanic foederatus and King of Italy, Odoacer. After a victorious four-year war, Theoderic killed Odoacer with his own hands while they shared a meal, settled his 200,000 to 250,000 people in Italy, and founded an Ostrogothic Kingdom based in Ravenna.[5]


    the amali
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amal_dynasty
    Last edited by vettor; 02-09-2019 at 09:28 PM.

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    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
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    IBD sharing pretty much rules out the possibility of such a mass repopulation of Central Italy by North Italians. A replacement rate of ~60% would be needed to get from Sicilian-like Imperial Romans to Tuscan-like modern people from Rome.

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