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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    IBD sharing pretty much rules out the possibility of such a mass repopulation of Central Italy by North Italians. A replacement rate of ~60% would be needed to get from Sicilian-like Imperial Romans to Tuscan-like modern people from Rome.
    Just thinking out loud here... so if a smaller incoming population is more feasible, then it needs to be more northern than Northern Italy, no?
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Just thinking out loud here... so if a smaller incoming population is more feasible, then it needs to be more northern than Northern Italy, no?
    Yes. With something like Germany_Medieval we'd need only ~20% to get to modern-day Lazians, for example. Looks more realistic than 60% North Italian, considering that Raveanne et al GLOBETROTTER runs does detect a admixture event with Northwestern Europeans ca 400 AD, when 'barbarians' started flooding Italy.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I can't see how they could have a significant impact because Rome and its immediate vicinity were never conquered or settled by the Langobards, the most important Germanic settlers of early medieval Italy.
    Something that needs to be considered is that beginning in the Imperial era Italy experienced plummeting fertility rates-- the importation of masses of laborers and slaves from the East (now seemingly confirmed by DNA), the Julian marriage laws, and the repeated settlement of military veterans on the apparently deserted rural parts of Italy are all evidence of this.

    From its population height of about 1 million during "the Principate"; Rome's population was reportedly only 35,000 by the time of the Langobard invasion. It's not unreasonable to think this pattern was repeated in other major urban centers.

    So a small invading population of elites could easily have an outsized genetic impact.
    Last edited by K33; 02-10-2019 at 01:12 AM.

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  7. #24
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    A few things I've noticed checking out the FINESTRUCTURE clustering for Italians and the correlates of such clustering. Two major themes:

    In the Iberia paper, the population structure by segments (i.e. genealogy) closely reflects language and expansion of historic kingdoms, which tells us that the hypothetical populations in which the preferential mating that creates clusters takes place, have a historical/political and linguistic counterpart in real life.

    pCr8xVb.png


    In the Raveane et al paper we find this too for Italy, but for languages:

    Linguistic map of Italy:
    5pcLUcD.png

    Plus Corsica, to illustrate Corsican-Tuscanian:
    8OF9vcs.png

    Clusters and Dendrogram:
    rjKatxU.png
    84vNEiL.png

    The northern Gallo-Romance languages (all in green in the Po Valley in the language map) have their corresponding clusters, the Tuscan-Corsican languages are recovered (notice that the Corsican cluster is placed on the same branch as the Tuscan clusters in NCItaly1+NCItaly2+NCItaly3 in the FINESTRUCTURE dendrogram!), the Central Italian languages match with the purple SCItaly1, and the Southern match with SItaly2 and SItaly 3. So the situation with population clustering via genealogy and languages seem to happen here too.

    So the processes that took place to create modern population structure occurred when the languages started to diverge. This doesn't say much, but at least tells us after some point large-scale migrations from one cluster's territory to another were impossible.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 02-10-2019 at 05:47 AM.
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  9. #25
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    Cont'd

    The other thing is there are some differences in the SNP PCA and the CHROMOPAINTER chunkcount PCA. In the SNP PCA, the whole Italian peninsula points from Sicilians toward Iberians, some Southern French, and Basque (WEurope1, 2, and 3 and Basque are WEurope4), except for the Trentino-Fiuli, Piedmont and Aosta clusters that have recent admixture.

    aDrmRXX.png

    But in the Chunkcount PCA, one can see that, starting from the Emilio-Romagna cluster (dark green onwards) Northern Italians are differentiated from Southerners by pointing towards the NW European clusters (GBR, CEU, Orcadian, and German), instead of the Iberians and Basque, despite sharing more genome-wide similary with Iberians and Basque on unlinked markers.

    8S11dQ7.png

    I think, looking at this, there is strong evidence of Germanic influence on Norther Italy north of Tuscany, but beyond this there isn't such evidence.

    Also, about the PCA positions I reported on the original paper, I just realised I shoulda asked if the ancient samples were projected onto the PCA instead of being PCA'ed together with moderns; this may be whats causing problems with the interpretation.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 02-10-2019 at 05:48 AM.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    A few things I've noticed checking out the FINESTRUCTURE clustering for Italians and the correlates of such clustering. Two major themes:

    In the Iberia paper, the population structure by segments (i.e. genealogy) closely reflects language and expansion of historic kingdoms, which tells us that the hypothetical populations in which the preferential mating that creates clusters takes place, have a historical/political and linguistic counterpart in real life.

    pCr8xVb.png


    In the Raveane et al paper we find this too for Italy, but for languages:

    Linguistic map of Italy:
    5pcLUcD.png

    Plus Corsica, to illustrate Corsican-Tuscanian:
    8OF9vcs.png

    Clusters and Dendrogram:
    rjKatxU.png
    84vNEiL.png

    The northern Gallo-Romance languages (all in green in the Po Valley in the language map) have their corresponding clusters, the Tuscan-Corsican languages are recovered (notice that the Corsican cluster is placed on the same branch as the Tuscan clusters in NCItaly1+NCItaly2+NCItaly3 in the FINESTRUCTURE dendrogram!), the Central Italian languages match with the purple SCItaly1, and the Southern match with SItaly2 and SItaly 3. So the situation with population clustering via genealogy and languages seem to happen here too.

    So the processes that took place to create modern population structure occurred when the languages started to diverge. This doesn't say much, but at least tells us after some point large-scale migrations from one cluster's territory to another were impossible.
    Why does Tuscany differ so much in a genetic sense from all the neighbouring regions of Italy in the clusters map above?

    Nobody has given any explanation for this feature in the Raveane paper.

    Does "Tuscan-Corsican" have some genetic significance?
    Were some or most "Etruscans" some sort of Corsican derivatives?
    Last edited by Cascio; 02-10-2019 at 08:56 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    Something that needs to be considered is that beginning in the Imperial era Italy experienced plummeting fertility rates-- the importation of masses of laborers and slaves from the East (now seemingly confirmed by DNA), the Julian marriage laws, and the repeated settlement of military veterans on the apparently deserted rural parts of Italy are all evidence of this.

    From its population height of about 1 million during "the Principate"; Rome's population was reportedly only 35,000 by the time of the Langobard invasion. It's not unreasonable to think this pattern was repeated in other major urban centers.

    So a small invading population of elites could easily have an outsized genetic impact.
    Agreed, but Byzantine Rome was really hostile to the Langobards and there is no record of Germanic farmers or soldiers settling in or around Rome nor in the Byzantine Duchy of Rome which took in much of Lazio from Lake Bracciano to Terracina.

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  14. #28
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    Still no theories?

    Why does Tuscany differ from both the rest of central Italy and also northern Italy beyond the Apennines and even Liguria further up the coast?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Still no theories?

    Why does Tuscany differ from both the rest of central Italy and also northern Italy beyond the Apennines and even Liguria further up the coast?
    Just throwing one into the air - maybe Tuscans are the most "archaic" or well preserved Italian population, and Greek geneflow didn't penetrate any further North, while at the same time any Germanic or Celtic influence didn't reach as South as Tuscany, which would also explain why in one of the maps posted here they cluster with Northern Sardinians.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Just throwing one into the air - maybe Tuscans are the most "archaic" or well preserved Italian population, and Greek geneflow didn't penetrate any further North, while at the same time any Germanic or Celtic influence didn't reach as South as Tuscany, which would also explain why in one of the maps posted here they cluster with Northern Sardinians.
    And Corsicans too.

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