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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    And Corsicans too.
    I know several Corsicans from the mountains (hinterland). They look indeed "archaic" and very well preserved.
    One local guy has showed me his DNA tests, actually very similar to Tuscans. Moreover he has a true Roman legionary's head!

    On the other hand, on the coastline, there had been many Greek influences (e.g. Cargèse).
    Eurogenes G25: 75% Beaker_Bavaria+25% Mycenaean
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Just throwing one into the air - maybe Tuscans are the most "archaic" or well preserved Italian population, and Greek geneflow didn't penetrate any further North, while at the same time any Germanic or Celtic influence didn't reach as South as Tuscany, which would also explain why in one of the maps posted here they cluster with Northern Sardinians.
    One thing that we shouldn't ignore is, Northern Italian Beakers seems to have been an still very inhomogeneous population. One of the samples had very high levels of Anatolia_BA (more than 35%), while the other lacked it altogether and perfectly fitted in the mainstream 'Beaker cline', from MN farmers to Rhenish Beakers (not to cite the purely Neolithic farmer sample). The high similarity between modern day North Italians and Parma Beakers only happens when you average out the two avaiable samples, so it is rather an artificial resemblance. When you use the samples individually, they seems to be quite distant from Bergamasques. The algorithm still prefers a lot of admixture from a more southern, Collegno trio-like population to account for the additional Anatolia_BA to the exclusion of Parma Beaker average and a more northern one (either Gaulish or Germanic, or both) to balance it out. That would fit a scenery where Roman admixture shift North Italians south, and Germanic admixture take them back to the previous more northern position. Taking a look at CL36, the North Italian like sample from Collegno, he seems to require considerably more southern admixture (Roman?) than Bergamo.
    Last edited by Token; 02-10-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    And Corsicans too.
    I think Tuscany was also impacted genetically by Lombard and later Frankish Admixture..
    Lucca was a Lombard Capital of Area.. also in 1348 Tuscany lost 75% of its population to the Black Death.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Belisarius defeated the Goths on behalf of the East-Roman Empire. According to contemporary authors the Goth simply "marched off" afterwards, and we have no idea where to. Few years after the Byzantine Rule over Italy was restored the Longobards invaded and took Italy, but not the Ravenna Exarchate, Rome and surroundings and the extreme southern parts. Those remained in East-Roman hands. Ravenna eventually went to Lombard rule, the rest remained independent from the Lombards. Which might have been part of the deep origins of both the papal states and the Kingdom of the two Sicilies.

    Contemporaneous authors state that the Gothic wars left Italy massively depopulated. Erik's theory of repopulation should result in a Greek related pocket in the area of Ravenna. Can we see that nowadays?
    I read an article once where they stated they thought elevated levels of J2 Ydna and other various related Subclades in Ravenna area were due to its time as Byzantine capital in North.. Also Venice and Subsequent Venetian Empire population were originally formed from retreating Byzantine population as far as ethogenesis.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I think Tuscany was also impacted genetically by Lombard and later Frankish Admixture..
    Lucca was a Lombard Capital of Area.. also in 1348 Tuscany lost 75% of its population to the Black Death.
    Germanic haplogroups like R-106 are heavily outnumbered by R-U152 in the Lucca area despite its Langobard background.
    Franks were an elite few and did not even displace the Langobard (or Langobardized aristocracy) of the Lucca area at local level to any significant extent.

    A recent study declared that even the local mtDNA had hardly changed in the Pisa-Lucca area since prehistory.
    Last edited by Cascio; 02-10-2019 at 01:55 PM.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulogène Rix View Post
    I know several Corsicans from the mountains (hinterland). They look indeed "archaic" and very well preserved.
    One local guy has showed me his DNA tests, actually very similar to Tuscans. Moreover he has a true Roman legionary's head!

    On the other hand, on the coastline, there had been many Greek influences (e.g. Cargèse).
    Corsicans should be considered Italians in my mening. Their genetics and language are much closer to Italians than French.
    Even the Great Napoleone Buonaparte had Italian ancestry from Tuscany.

    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    I think Tuscany was also impacted genetically by Lombard and later Frankish Admixture..
    Lucca was a Lombard Capital of Area.. also in 1348 Tuscany lost 75% of its population to the Black Death.
    Source about black death killing 75% of Population?

    I am not sure they actually impacted the general Tuscan so much. Tuscany and Italy had a big population and the Germanic invaders were few.

    Maybe in small villages in the Mountains but not on Mainland Tuscany. You can even see the difference today that people from the Tuscan plains have darker complex than the ones from villages in the mountains.

    I think that earlier Celtic and Germanic migrations had bigger impact. During the Fall of Rome for example. A big part of North Italy was Gaul-Celtic in the early roman times.

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Corsicans should be considered Italians in my mening. Their genetics and language are much closer to Italians than French.
    Even the Great Napoleone Buonaparte had Italian ancestry from Tuscany.
    I fully agree, but in my opinion the Corsicans from the hinterland are genetically close to the Romans (from Latium) of the Iron Age. I know that phenotypes are not considered seriously on Anthrogenica but I can tell you that blue eyes and fair hair are not rare in some parts of Corsica, especially in the mountains.
    Indeed, the nobility of Corsica was composed of families from Tuscany.
    Eurogenes G25: 75% Beaker_Bavaria+25% Mycenaean
    Eurogenes K36: 75% Swiss_German+25% Italian_Campania

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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I think, looking at this, there is strong evidence of Germanic influence on Norther Italy north of Tuscany, but beyond this there isn't such evidence.
    Being a contrarian here: Though you could also interpret that finestructure PCA pattern as pointing being between French dominated cluster NWEurope1 and Spain dominated cluster WEurope4 and Basque dominated cluster WEurope2? E.g. SW France?

    NWEurope2 and NWEurope3 are the closest of NWEurope clusters to where NItaly1 is pointing, but those are British dominated clusters (no specific Irish, Welsh or Scots of course), and even NWEurope4 is (though all these clusters have CEU which is hard to call, as a North American composite of NW Europeans who are probably mostly British in ancestry but by no means all), while NWEurope5 is a bit more close to being German+Norway+Sweden in its affiliations and fairly off cline. I always suspect there are never enough regional French samples in many of these panels, and Swiss samples would've been useful too.

    ....

    Very useful plots from Raveane to add. Compared to PCA on genotypes, the finestructure PCA seems to give a bit more resolution on the SItaly1 'yellow' (mainly Sicily, Calabria) and SItaly2 'light brown' and SItaly3 'dark brown' sets where the later have more tilt to the SEEurope2 (southern and central Greek) cluster, and the distance between SItaly1, SItaly2, SItaly3, SEEurope2 to West Asia looks smoother. Cluster NItaly6 (Friuli-Venezia-Giulia and Veneto dominated) touches Balkan1 (Croatian, Serbia, Bosnia) to a lesser degree also.

    @Cascio, as you say re: Tuscan samples, the tree embedding places them (basically all the NCItaly clusters are Tuscan) on a branch with Corsica cluster, and some of their least populous cluster NCItaly3, actually overlaps them. Probably more of a sphere of interactions between Tuscany and Corsica? Plus linguistic / political isolation?

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  17. #39
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    This is the Way I see it at the moment:

    After fall of Rome Whole of italy was invaded By Visigoths - Ostrogoths etc
    How much impact that had is up for debate but 23andMe states a Germanic Signal persist to a certain degree in all Italians.
    9A1D5487-81EE-4F32-B1DC-362BDEEBA13C.jpeg
    When Ostrogothis ruled Rome,Italian administration continued under Tribute.
    Later even During Lombard ruled Italy sources always mention where Lombards are found Ostrogoth communities are also found in there wake.
    Anyway forget about that for a moment.
    Fast forward to Lombard and Byzantine powers fighting over Italy.
    Here below map of changing Territory borders through time period between Lombards and Byzantine powers:
    Overall other than Revenna and Rome,large areas of North,Central and Central South italy are won out by Lombard powers. Obviously Lombards more dominant in the North being Lombard Capital So Geographically North Italy would of received more North European Admixture.
    45575EE0-FBA1-4F76-9BEC-839F2CE36D8B.jpeg
    Then this beggars the question if Rome was separate, and a huge part of South italy was under Lombard rule why do modern Lazio people plot bit more Northern than Central Southern Italian?
    I think this is where we have to take slightly more recent Admixture into account as we move onto Holy Roman Empire of italy and then Holy Roman Empire In General.
    Map Below:
    25C88968-A823-47B5-B64B-6953663809E6.jpeg
    Notice above in map that Rome and above are all part of Holy Roman Empire for a long long time,receiving much more North Euro Admixture through this time period (Tuscany arguably receiving more North Euro Admixture than Rome post Roman Empire Times as they were part of longobard Empire prior to becoming part of Holy Roman Empire.

    Now let’s draw are attention back to Central Southern Italy.
    They didn’t receive this later Holy Roman Admixture.
    They are largely part of Byzantine Italy,then kingdom of Sicily then Naples.
    Map below:
    8EE79263-635E-493F-9077-7BF668A18BBF.jpeg
    Notice the Segregation line below Rome.
    So Basically a large time period where areas below,Sicily and Southern Italy mixed very much territorially with themselves with out Holy Roman Admixture just South Italian and Sicilian.
    So overall Rome and above has more recent Germanic Admixture where as South italy more recent Byzantine Greek,Near Eastern,West Asian Admixture and to a degree North African regarding Sicily.
    Last edited by Claudio; 02-10-2019 at 02:48 PM.

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  19. #40
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    this much was already discussed, but judging by the three beaker samples a major dilution process was occurring specially when factoring in that the most steppe_eba(~29%) sample I2478(P312+) was buried(?wife) along I2477 who had no steppe related ancestry, hence a morph back to something sardinian-like(towards I2477) as now described for EBA central italy was well visible by just these three samples; I1979(st_eba ~25%) pull towards the low cov sicily_beaker rather than 08/15neolithic I2477 also indicated that something CHG/Iran rich entered north italy(south po plains) and more marked than iceman/remedello, prob via central italy where also the new mining and metallurgical centers were located(4th mil);

    and re-looking at the sources again it is clear that upper italy was than subsequently and substantially(MBA(II) frequented from the pannonian basin as everything is connected to it, hence why hungary_ba was always a good proxy for modern north italians; this stream during that bronze age is exactly the 1k years missing from the moots record yet turning up in the IA/rep period, prob the samples described as clustering with modern north-italians a position similar to hungary_ba and balkan_ba samples; concerning the linguistics Vettor posted a recent linguistic paper once more/again linking everything to pannonia(and noricum) for the IE backround; i suspect based on the archaeo record two waves ~1500bc(MBAII) and ~900bc(EIA); thus in roman period due to heavy colonisation(more cispadana than transpadana) i view upper italy as a mash up of something hungary_ba and collegno-trio; with collegno itself however more a case study than blue print and CL36(~700ad) pointing to an overall (ult pos)direction aka the same take i still had in october;

    the longobard landtaking is different then its sphere of rule, while the longobards ruled over much of italy(kingdom+dukedoms south of the roman corridor) the settling of the longobards is vastly compatible with the earliest landtaking by alboin/albwin; but what the moots samples have shown is that the late antiquity foedus/foederati, who were permitted to settle +barbarian 'coloni' grants, actually did settle and could be that northern source in places no longobard(or ostrogoth) ever ventured; a field aka late antiquity military/social structure previously completely overlooked; and with all that said i still think that lombardia is the most archaic(strongest neolithic/anatolia_n preservation til today) of all upper italy, that much presented in academic papers and other data over and over again;

    longobard necropoli best indicator of actual presence
    1all italy(recent excavations(few dozens) not incl) 2just piemonte blue
    1U0HQTnd.jpg2Vi6Hk9C.png
    Last edited by alexfritz; 02-10-2019 at 03:27 PM.
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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