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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by kolgeh
    I think they would be very close to steppe_MLBA.
    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Doubt that. Look how eastern Sintashta is.

    But if your point is that the Etruscans will show a close relationship with Italian Bell Beakers, then perhaps that's true, although mostly with the Bell Beakers that don't have a lot of steppe ancestry.

    Unfortunately, the position and shape of the Etruscan cluster can be interpreted in a variety of ways. For instance, it's impossible to say whether these samples have any recent Near Eastern ancestry. They may well have, depending on what the pre-Etruscan population was like.
    Do you mean the Italian Bell Beakers in the following figures with no steppe ancestry? So, the Etruscans are mostly EEF?

    bell-beaker-italy.PNG

    bell-beaker-italy-2.PNG

  2. #502
    This speaks to the impact the destruction of Carthage had on population movements around the Mediterranean. Prior to this, Near Eastern populations would naturally convene in the middle North African coast and its metropolis. After the Roman carnage this made Italy itself a prime destination for Levantine people seeking new opportunities. Alexandria of the Jews would serve as the main port of travel to Rome directly from the Near East. As Alexandria itself wasnít fond of newcomers, they may have been very eager to facilitate them away from their city. Thousands of years later not much has changed. War leads to an influx of migrants and with it a new change in the demographics, but instead of Italy itís in northern Europe and in lands not even the Romans could conquer.

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  4. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    I change my mind about the diffusion of Levantine input out of Sicily. And now that we see a lack of Levantine input in Italy prior to a specific date and we also do not see it in Mycenaeans or Minoans, looking at all of the evidence above it seems evident that there must have been the following:

    - Aegean (Mycenaean/Minoan-like) migration to southern Italy which almost completely decimated and replaced the "native" southern Italian populations,

    - Direct Levantine input to western Sicily, likely by way of Phoenicians, which did not expand outside of Sicily to any significant extent (we do not know at this point if Aegean islanders had yet acquired their Levantine input but I would personally guess no)

    - A significant migration of the new "Aegean" southern Italian population northward, bringing the Central Italian cluster further south and in turn replacing some of the central Italian population,

    - Near Eastern input (Levantine?) directly from the Near East to mainland central and southern Italy, independent of any Greek migration and creating genetic outliers in Italy (it is my personal belief that this is also when Aegean islanders acquired their Levantine admixture but we won't know without ancient samples),

    - The eventual diffusion of this Levantine input on mainland Italy leading to low, homogenous levels in the population, leading to a "Sicilian like" southern Italian population. Sicily had simply been the first to receive direct Levantine input.

    - Eventual "northern" migrations to central Italy which would cause them to cease clustering with today's southern Italians and rather being a buffer zone between north and south.
    My money is on the origin of the Levantine Input being Coele-Syria(the post Phoenician empire people of Lebanon & Syria) and Hasmonean & Herodean dynasty era Levantine Jews which altogether covers the geographic area of modern day Israel,Lebanon and Southern part of Syria.
    Last edited by Claudio; 05-26-2019 at 03:28 PM.

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    People used to say the presence of Levantine input in mainland Italy was proof it must have been Neolithic (since the only historically documented settlement was in western Sicily), but clearly now we know this is not the case.

    I also think we will soon figure out a good estimate for when the Aegean islands acquired their Levantine DNA.

    The question becomes, did East Sicily and Calabria receive their Levantine input indirectly from western Sicily, or directly from the Levant at the same time of the rest of southern Italy?

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  8. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    People used to say the presence of Levantine input in mainland Italy was proof it must have been Neolithic (since the only historically documented settlement was in western Sicily), but clearly now we know this is not the case.

    I also think we will soon figure out a good estimate for when the Aegean islands acquired their Levantine DNA.

    The question becomes, did East Sicily and Calabria receive their Levantine input indirectly from western Sicily, or directly from the Levant at the same time of the rest of southern Italy?
    As far as Calabria is concerned that’s a tricky question to answer.
    I think during this imperial period Calabria and Southern Italy would have received near Eastern migrants just like central Italy but was later less effected by the Germanic migrations of late antiquity,so I imagine more preserving there imperial Rome era Admixture level status,but then being part of Byzantine Empire they later received even more near Eastern Admixture on top so hard to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    As far as Calabria is concerned that’s a tricky question to answer.
    I think during this imperial period Calabria and Southern Italy would have received near Eastern migrants just like central Italy but was later less effected by the Germanic migrations of late antiquity,so I imagine more preserving there imperial Rome era Admixture level status,but then being part of Byzantine Empire they received even more near Eastern Admixture on top so hard to say.
    Yes. It could be a combination of factors. What about eastern Sicily? Keep in mind some parts of eastern Sicily (Syracuse? Ragusa?) have less Near Eastern input than some parts of the mainland.

    I always suspected some of those Italian Collegno outliers are Calabrians.

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  11. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Yes. It could be a combination of factors. What about eastern Sicily? Keep in mind some parts of eastern Sicily (Syracuse? Ragusa?) have less Near Eastern input than some parts of the mainland.

    I always suspected some of those Italian Collegno outliers are Calabrians.
    Didn’t you once say that East Sicilians have slightly elevated Balkan/Baltic levels?
    Could the reduced near Eastern input have been caused by being diluted down by excess post Slavic invasion Greek Diaspora which came to east Sicily?
    Last edited by Claudio; 05-26-2019 at 04:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudio View Post
    Didn’t you once say that East Sicilians have slightly elevated Balkan/Baltic levels?
    Could the reduced near Eastern input have been diluted by later post Slavic invasion Greek Diaspora which came to east Sicily?
    Some of them, yes. Some people from Syracuse and Ragusa (and even more so, many Apulians) show elevated NE European, sort of plotting like Cyclades, North Aegean, and Maniot Greeks -- like 7/8 Sicilian and 1/8 Russian/Polish/Ukraine. This would suggest, to me, a significant recent Greek migration from the mainland.

    But other SE Sicilians definitely came out more similar to Abruzzese people, still firmly Southeast European but without any major shift toward the Levant and North Africa. This would imply to me less impact from Slavicized Greeks, but a demographic base that was never as Near Eastern as other parts of southern Italy.

    Then we have Trapani which looks like a heavily Near Eastern and North African base that had been impacted by a significant Western European migration, sort of the opposite scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    Some of them, yes. Some people from Syracuse and Ragusa (and even more so, many Apulians) show elevated NE European, sort of plotting like Cyclades, North Aegean, and Maniot Greeks -- like 7/8 Sicilian and 1/8 Russian/Polish/Ukraine. This would suggest, to me, a significant recent Greek migration from the mainland.

    But other SE Sicilians definitely came out more similar to Abruzzese people, still firmly Southeast European but without any major shift toward the Levant and North Africa. This would imply to me less impact from Slavicized Greeks, but a demographic base that was never as Near Eastern as other parts of southern Italy.

    Then we have Trapani which looks like a heavily Near Eastern and North African base that had been impacted by a significant Western European migration, sort of the opposite scenario.
    Here’s something to consider.. as far as Levantine Admixture is concerned during imperial era Rome.
    For all we know during the Roman imperial period,Levantine Admixture may have been higher in Roman Central Italy and Southern Italy than South Eastern Sicily.
    ( Bare with me) Rome was the Capital! “All roads leads to Rome” so Syrian,Lebanese,and Levantine Jewish migrants would come to Rome and surrounding area first,either by choice or as Slaves.
    If you look at Sicily’s economic position post Magna Grecia there was no major construction in Sicily during the Roman period.
    No new temples were built in Sicily. No Roman roads were built.
    Sicily during the Roman period was a bit of a backwater (a far cry from its Magna Grecia heyday) which was being used solely as farm land to grow the grain which fueled the Roman war machine.
    So maybe South Eastern Sicily during the imperial period had less of these near Eastern migrants than Rome and Southern Italy which on the contrary evidently did undergo/receive major Roman construction work of Temples,Roads and increased population growth which would also attract migrants.
    Last edited by Claudio; 05-26-2019 at 09:17 PM.

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    there is confusion in some in this thread , because they refer to northern italians as anyone north of Rome, be it etruscans, umbrians, picenes, sabines etc

    we know by history that Romans did not conquer any italian tribes in the alps until 15 BC
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium



    we know by history that the Romans took until 100BC to kill off the celts in Romagna italy

    Veneti where allies of Romans from 300 Bc and absorbed into the Roman empire circa 80 BC

    coastal Ligurians seem to be the only source of "northern" troops when Roman went against the Gauls in modern France


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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