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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    One thing that archaeologists agree on is that the Villanovan Culture was the first unquestionably Etruscan culture. However, that is not the beginning of incineration, which begins before that with the very misleadingly named Proto-Villanovan Culture which is found in many non-Etruscan areas from Northern Italy to NE Sicily. This much I know - when I look at Etruscan material culture, I see a lot of clearly eastern influences that have absolutely no parallels in prior periods. So, there are good arguments from both sides of the Etruscan debate, but neither can be proven with the data we have today. Some ancient DNA from non-incinerated youths will hopefully clear that up some day.
    Fingers crossed.

    As for Etruscan material culture being clearly eastern influenced, I don't know how much weight should this argument deserve in relation to genetics since we can observe the presence of such "orientalization" in the material culture also further west in the Mediterranean thanks to the spread of Phoenician and Hellenic cultures.
    Last edited by Bernard Marx; 02-11-2019 at 05:22 PM.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    So are we going to see any R1b-M269 or R1a-M417 in Rome in this period? Early? Late?
    Or will it be Y-J as in the Mycenaeans?
    Hopefully they got some samples from the early Latins that founded Rome. They likely did from the sounds of it. I will venture a guess that the early Latins and Romans were a mix of mainly J2, R1b, I2a, G2a and E1b1b. We shall see though.
    Last edited by J Man; 02-11-2019 at 05:28 PM.

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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    So are we going to see any R1b-M269 or R1a-M417 in Rome in this period? Early? Late?
    Or will it be Y-J as in the Mycenaeans?
    I expect that those 60% N.Italian like Iron Age/Republican samples will be heavily R-M269>>R-U152. I don't think there will be much R1a even in the Imperial period outside of some outliers. During the Republic period I expect to see a lot of haplogroup J.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The linguistic evidence does favour the "Eastern narrative" you seem so eager to reject.
    I'm only eager to reject unsupported claims. That the linguistic evidence does favour the "Eastern narrative, at the moment, is a respectable opinion more than an incontrovertible fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The model you put forth relies heavily on Carlo de Simone's work, and at least one of the points you made here can be firmly rejected, the allegedly Etruscan origin of the Lemnian alphabet for instance, in reality the Etruscan alphabet is a variation of the Cumaean alphabet which is of Euboean origin while the Lemnian alphabet is directly derived from the Euboean alphabet (and not the Etruscan one).

    That the Etruscan alphabet derives from the Euboean alphabet through the variant of Cuma is well-known. Whether the alphabet used in Lemnos comes directly from the Eubean alphabet or from an Etruscan variant, what exactly changes at the end? However, the alphabet of Lemnos, a western ‘red’ alphabet type (Euboean-Chalcidian alphabet), is more used in the West (Italy, Greece) than in Asia Minor.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    There is also an Italic (and more to the point Umbrian-like) substrate in Etruscan, in fact numerous Etruscan personal names and theonyms are of Italic origin (onomastic borrowing also went the other way around though)..

    What you call Umbrian substrate can be due to the contacts with the Umbrians. Not all linguists believe it's a substrate. The names prove very little, because anyone could also become a naturalized Etruscan. Since the Etruscans at some point became the richest and most flourishing civilization among those of pre-Roman Italy, it is obvious that they ended up attracting migrations from nearby Italic peoples. And the Umbrians to the east are precisely among those with whom Etruscans shared the most borders.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    As far as the genetic evidence is of concern, a west-to-east migration from the Italian peninsula to the Aegean during the LBA collapse, while not impossible per se (the outlier from Armenoi could potentially fit) is somewhat questionable. Aegean influence in the Italian peninsula on the other hand is going to be quite substantial, that much is clear. The major problem with the west-to-east model is that it is hard to picture an association between Proto-Tyrsenian and the Urnfield horizon, although I am aware of the presence of Villanovan bearing Etruscan inscriptions as well as Villanovan material in Greece.

    It's obviously a scenario further back in time and also more difficult to grasp. Questionable? It is a scenario that deserves to be investigated. Why not do that? In any case does not necessarily concern the proto-Villanovan, it could also extended to the Terramare.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    So are we going to see any R1b-M269 or R1a-M417 in Rome in this period? Early? Late?
    Or will it be Y-J as in the Mycenaeans?
    Wasn't there already R-P312 and E-V13 plotting in Magna Graecia from the Lombard paper awhile back? Although I guess this is post-Imperial, their genetics are certainly not north European per-se. Also, there was a R1b-M269+(L23*) who plotted with Anatolians in the same paper I believe.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  11. #66
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    what is often overlooked is that these/those villanovan settlements that eventually progressed into 'etruscan' urban centers were exactly those that before the orientalizing period already belonged to a maritime network geared towards sardinia(pics below); this network abrubtly ends in the mid 8th and by the late 8th the orientalizing period begins a superseding of a new maritime network from the east mediterranean; before the mid 8th greek and phoenician colonies were placed rather seclusive mostly on islets off the coast, but the founding of cumae/kyme on the mainland(from pithekoussai) described by the experts as a 'show of strength' corresponds to a new era altogether and while pithekoussai was a greek/euboean colony it is known to have incl levantine residence per aramaic and phoenician inscr found, there is no reason to believe this custom did not also exist in kyme; so there was already a foreign maritime network that simply got superseded by another with mainfocus now cyprus;

    on a footnote the alphabet was aquirred from euboeans but not from pithekoussai that is not correct as the tyrrhenian script is too archaic than that of pithekoussai, meaning an adoption at an earlier and thus different location;

    sardinian/nuragic maritime network(>mid8th)
    Z_91536_vulci.JPGba44OQS.jpg
    Last edited by alexfritz; 02-11-2019 at 07:39 PM.
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Wasn't there already R-P312 and E-V13 plotting in Magna Graecia from the Lombard paper awhile back? Although I guess this is post-Imperial, their genetics are certainly not north European per-se. Also, there was a R1b-M269+(L23*) who plotted with Anatolians in the same paper I believe.
    The autosomal variability was already all over the place in Bell Beaker samples from the Italian peninsula and Sicily. Fast forward to the Lombard period roughly 2500 years later and individual samples will plot even more erratically.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larth View Post
    I'm only eager to reject unsupported claims. That the linguistic evidence does favour the "Eastern narrative, at the moment, is a respectable opinion more than an incontrovertible fact.
    I think archaeologists in the past were more cautious against migrations and most local archaeologists were outright anti-migrationists. Linguists on the other hand were more open minded, but some took similarities waaay too far for my liking. Anyway, it is good to see that the ancient DNA revolution is shaking up the world of archaeology and linguistics.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernard Marx View Post
    Fingers crossed.

    As for Etruscan material culture being clearly eastern influenced, I don't know how much weight should this argument deserve in relation to genetics since we can observe the presence of such "orientalization" in the material culture also further west in the Mediterranean thanks to the spread of Phoenician and Hellenic cultures.
    The only "eastern" i recall is that the etruscans called themselves ...rasenna.....they became etrusvans because they lived in Etruria.
    Greeks state they originate in thessally.
    Their euobean alphabet is far more archaic than other peoples

    European = 99.2%......Central Asian = 0.8% ....Yfull - 1460BC, Jura caves
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I think archaeologists in the past were more cautious against migrations and most local archaeologists were outright anti-migrationists.
    Usually archaeologists are cautious by nature of their work, because archaeologists usually comment only on what they find or have been found, that is something that must be tangible, must be real. Of course, there is no doubt that extra-scientific reasons may have affected some hypotheses, not only in the sense of antimigration, also in the sense of migration. But it's not just about archaeologists, it's about everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Linguists on the other hand were more open minded, but some took similarities waaay too far for my liking. Anyway, it is good to see that the ancient DNA revolution is shaking up the world of archaeology and linguistics.

    Linguists, on the other hand, have to hazard a guess often based on a few inscriptions, a few elements, not to mention the many theories that rely solely on seeming lexical evidence and sometimes even paretymology.


    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Anyway, it is good to see that the ancient DNA revolution is shaking up the world of archaeology and linguistics.

    Indeed. Especially if geneticists really figured out what they found and don't try to replace, in the conclusions, archaeologists, linguists and historians, but they manage to get them into the debate.

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