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Thread: The Italian Peninsula through Ancient DNA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Agrippa View Post
    Weren't Longobards from Collegno autosomally Scandinavian?
    Concerning the "Longobards" from Szolad and Collegno who were U106+ etc - these are my notes on them (I maintain a list of U106+ aDNA samples and any info I can find on them for the U106 DNA group and Dr. McDonald!):

    Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



    SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2 >Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ▒ 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szˇlßd. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ▒ 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

    (Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)

    SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

    SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 (female) is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 (female) is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 (female) 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons for CL84 (I have yet to find a list of the exact grave goods of each sample from Collegno)? Some weapons in grave goods of kin group members. Note that because of their kingroup status with CL84 - I consider male samples of kindred CL 1 - CL 92, CL93, CL97, CL145 and CL146 very likely to also be U106+.

    These are samples from the Baiuvarii around Munich:

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 106: U106+ (possibly based on BAM analysis kit run by several people and Yleaf for the Z305 result - update: 3 reads for U106 and one for Z305 per Alex W.) - Z381+, Z156+, Z305+): Male aged 60+. Grave goods included: spatha, belt, bag, vessel, glass. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480 - 510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Saxony and NE Germany. Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 10 per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.” Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 106’s counter-plate was decorated with gold-in-garnet inlay.

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 92: U106+ (per BAM analysis - update: 35 reads(!) for U106 per Alex W.): Male aged 20-30. Grave goods included: spatha, seax, lance, shield, belt, bag. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA very near Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in NE Germany (almost on top of it). Edit: Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 23 (the highest number of grave goods in this cemetery of the samples looked at in the paper Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes). Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 92’s belt buckle was made from rock crystal (one of two at Altenerding).

    ALH (Altheim cemetery) 1: U106+, (ALH 1 has now been found positive for the following SNPs by Alex Williamson: R-M269>U106/S21> Z381/S263>S264/Z156>S265/Z304> DF96>FGC13326>S22047 ). Male aged 50-60+. Grave goods included: Grave was disturbed/robbed. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite: Undateable, but other graves ALH 2, 3, and 10 were carbon dated in the range of roughly 260-535 AD (using lowest and highest estimates). Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA in between Norway, Denmark, and Northern Netherlands/Friesland.

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 316: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 4 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-60. Grave goods included: belt, bag, vessel. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA between North Norway and Norwegians and somewhat near ALH 1. Phase 2 burial (1st half of 6th cent: 500-550 AD) and 7 grave goods per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 393: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 11 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-55. Grave goods included: spatha. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 460 – 530 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Central East Prussia. No info from paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    and Niederstotzingen:

    Concerning kinship relations at Niederstotzingen: Both kinship estimates show first-degree relatedness for pairs 1/3A, 1/6, 1/9, 3A/9, and 9/12B and second-degree relatedness for 1/12B, 3A/6, 3A/12B, and 6/9. Except for 12C, all of the Niederstotzingen North individuals are detectably and closely related. (Niederstotzingen North, in this paper, refers to grave 1, 3a, 6, 9, 12b, and 12c - all are Northern in their autosomal DNA).


    Niederstotzingen Grave 1: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499> L48> Z9> Z347> Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age. Grave good: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Norwegian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 3a: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48> Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Lance, shield, saex, double-edged sword (spatha), arrows, and bridle with silver pressed sheet metal fittings of Byzantine ornamentation. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Norwegian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 6: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 14-17 years of age and archeological context: Lombardian. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), belt and bridle originating from Lombard Italy. Belt ornamentation dated to beginning of 7th century. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Norwegian, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 9: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319>S1734>FGC363>FGC23165>FGC23143 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 40-50 years of age and archeological context: Franconian (Frankish). Grave goods: Lance, shield, shield handle, saex, double-edged ring sword (ring-pommel spatha). The ring sword has a silver pommel and bead golden decorative button, and the lance engravings indicate Frankish origin. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Icelandic, Irish. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12b: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 30-40 years of age and archeological context: Byzantine. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha), lance, shield, lamellar helmet-Byzantine style. Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Lithuanian, Irish, Icelandic. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Niederstotzingen Grave 12c: R-U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347> Z328>FGC10367>Z319 per Alex Williamson. Male aged 20-30 years of age. Grave goods: Double-edged sword (spatha). Shared drift/autosomal: top 3 pops: Icelandic, Norwegian, Lithuanian. Isotope analysis: most likely local to the area or a similar area to Niederstotzingen. (Only grave 10 and 3b showed up as non-local in their isotope analysis).

    Cheers,
    Charlie
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    Thing to keep in mind though is U106 was banging around in the Bronze Age and in my DF98 group we have a mature male Unetice burial from Jinonice - so it was moving around before there were "Germanics" and "Celts" etc... but it does tend to show up SO far in Germanic Migration period burials... so we really need more late Bronze Age into Iron age to see where for at least U106 - where it was and was not... moving into the Roman times and the Germanic Migration Age etc...

    Mr. Unetice DF98: I7196: R1b - L23 > L51 > L151 > U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z304 > DF98 > S1911 > S1894. Early Unetice period/EBA about 2300-1800 B.C. Grave 59 at "Prague-Jinonice (“ZahradnictvÝ”, Prague 5 – Jinonice, Czech Republic).” The rescue excavations at the site Jinonice – Holman’s gardening took place in 1984-1986 during the construction of the subway [101–103]. A total of 29 graves were found, dated to the older phases of the ┌nětice culture on the basis of grave equipment (ceramic and bronze inventory) and burial ritual [103,104]. The skeletal remains of 36 individuals were found in the graves [105], with predominance of adults between 20-40 years of age. However, the burial ground was not excavated completely. With the exception of two graves, grave goods (mainly pottery) were found in all graves." The site itself is in Jinonice in south-western Prague.

    The orientation of the graves and individuals responds to the older phase of the Unetice culture. In most cases, the individual was on the right side, facing the exit (Moucha - Špaček 2011, 208). Strict orientation of the tombs or individuals was captured in 90% of cases. Only 2, 5% of the tombs had a deviation of the SS and 5% of the SS-SS. This orientation and tolerances are typical of this period. In Central Bohemia the deviation in the direction of the SW-SV is more prevalent, but there are two variants of deviations
    (Matthew 1982, 37-41).

    Some general info on this Jinonice burial ground and grave 59 translated from a Czech paper on this burial ground:
    Group A: On the northern area, 13 graves were discovered (Figure 6). Eleven graves could be identified accurately, three graves No. 24, 54 and 56 are outlined schematically, but their belonging to this area is "undeniable." From the graves, there are a number of graves 29, 30 and 31 in the western part of the burial ground. There is adjacent to tomb 29
    from the north grave 32. The second row in the west consists of graves No. 54, 55, 59. These two councils simultaneously "bind" grave 56. The eastern part of the burial ground is again one row of graves 1, 2, 24 and 28.

    The shape of the gravesite pit was not captured, or some traces of disturbance could be observed in seventy cases in graves 1, 2, 24, 31, 55, 56 and 59 (Figure 60: 1, 2; 61:24; 63:31; 65 : 55, 56; 66:59, 60), but for three of these graves No. 24, 55, 56 it is possible to derive the shape of the tombstone according to the documentation. The reason for the broken graves is probably their shallow recession, when the graves of the junks fell victim to the mechanical debris, and the tomb 59 was broken by the younger tomb of the Latins.

    With 11 surviving sepulchres the depth ranged from 7 cm at graves No. 55 and 56 up to 20 cm at grave No. 59. The grave depth probably did not affect the position of tombs at the burial ground. An exception to this almost standardized 10 cm recess can be seen in the tomb No. 59, which does not form a central grave, but rather is located on the edge of the surveyed area, and due to its violation of the young Latin tomb, it is impossible to follow other indices.

    Any funeral equipment contains 11 graves, evenly spaced across the entire group. This percentage is 84.6%. Two graves without equipment No. 24 and 56, although without a precise geodetic orientation, but based on a sketch (Kovßrik 1984-1986), it is possible to place them on the marginal places within the burial ground (Figure 6). The most numerous tomb inventory is a pottery consisting of 28 vessels, which were located in ten graves. The absence of a ceramic vessel in the tomb No. 59 is questionable as the grave was broken by the already mentioned Lathean tomb, and when the vessel was at its legs, it was destroyed.

    Bronze industry is represented by four artifacts. In the two graves No. 28 and 59, there were three bronze wings spun from a simple wire. There is a bronze dagger in tomb no. The earrings in all three cases were in the area of ​​sleep, dagger back to the individual in the pan. Pomero starts with 0, 25 bronze per dying. Bronze articles are found in every "row" of graves, creating at least visual the assumption of some almost regular deployment in the northern group of the burial ground. Even in the case of Grave No. 30 with a bronze dagger, one can not speak of a central position, on the contrary, the tomb completes its imaginative order with its location.

    The cracked industry was represented by quartz spikes and splinters. Overall, it appeared in five graves. Of this, in the graves No. 1 and 30 there were collections of scraps along the skulls and behind the spikes of the arrows, mostly in the vicinity of the pan, only in grave No. 28 the position of the cleaved industry could not be determined. In the remaining tomb No. 59 there were only queen shavings, there were only arrows in the tomb or grave and in the grave No. 55, but the position against the deceased was not determined. Concentration of the fragmented industry creates graves No. 1 and 28 in the eastern part of the burial ground and on the opposite side of graves No. 30, 55, 59.

    The finding of a fragment of the scarlet motif in the pelvis of a person in the tomb no. 59 is probably not particularly specific in the tomb position, as well as the stone "crush" in the tomb no. 55 at an undetermined position (Petriščßkovß 2009, 43). Sixteen of the individuals were anthropologically identified for sex only at six. There was one woman and five men at the burial ground. From that adult-adult woman, she was buried in the tomb No. 31, three adult-adult men in graves No. 2, 29, 30 and other men, one adult in Tomb 28 and one maturus in tomb No. 54 In general, fifteen individuals, three infans (two in the tomb 28, one in the tomb 32), two adult juveniles (graves 28, 56), seven adult adults (graves 2 , 23, 29, 30, 31, two in the tomb No. 55) and finally three maturus individuals (graves No. 1, 54, 59). The age could not be determined by one dead (Grave 24). A close grouping of adults of adult age can be observed at septents No. 29, 30, 31, but their concentration may be accidental, as age groups or age groups are not registered for other age groups. It can be inferred from this that, as adults, both adolescents and children were buried at the burial ground without visible rules that could be identified.
    Bronze objects also occurred in the graves several times even in one individual. A bronze dagger was found in the male tomb No. 30 in the adult, a bronze muzzle in the older person with a skull in the tomb No. 59.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-Z381-Z156-Z305/306/307-Z304-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget Dana b. 1843 Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4?) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b. Relative of King Bela III of Hungary (his Y-DNA and autosomal kinsman buried near him had mtDNA T2b2b1)!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Agrippa View Post
    Weren't Longobards from Collegno autosomally Scandinavian?
    a look at the paper reveals the answer is no, not collective; and from all we know equating the migration era 'barbarian-invasions' 1to1 to a 'germanic-invasion' is a false premise

    now warriors(arms incl) like CL145 CL146 CL92 CL93 CL97, reputedly all from the same kin-group(farae/clan) all R1b U106/L151+(CL92 U106/L52+), could fit that profile or atleast do not differ from the anglo-saxons or poprad on the PCA, so if that is the 'germanic profile' then the warriors in section east CL49 and (his son)CL53 are then clearly not germanic, also underlined by their Yhg R1b U152(L2/Z367+) or someone like CL63(I1a/Z37+) no longer fully germanic most prob a product of intermixing along the migration route

    there are aslo examples at szolad, as anything in szolad and pannonia ev. ended up in italy, so the barbarian invasion was def not 1to1 a germanic invasion; infact i even speculated that CL121(R1b/Z2103+) might be from the previous ostrogoth context not 'wielbark gothic' but again 'migration era' gothic; and yet regardless of their provenance or migration era altering all of them were still longobards* and defacto part of the barbarian invasion along with all of their known uniparentals(incl vai et al); and judging by how the local italians looked like CL30 &co and how the late-romans are described anything from the barbarian invasions matters for the modern north and central italian clusters (CL36-700ad) because based on that its not add 'north-european' admixture(K's amorim et al) its whatever you can quantify today

    *a longobard as j.jarnut put it(acc to their laws and texts) was anyone that adhered to longobard customs and laws and its recorded that the longobards readily integrated anybody they subjugated along their migration route, someone like CL49 was clearly not a germanic longobard but still a longobard and ?prob culturally germanic, however a christian(in contrast to CL146 &co) yet his gold-cross does show heathen longobard motives

    GNwIl2Q.png

    speculating on CL63 and CL49; CL63 was buried with no arms but in a 'funerary hut' right alongside CL31(contamenated) yet G2a and strong east-asian admixture (?maybe two gepids), they also found a U152+(terminal n.d.) in the tisza area in the avar/magyar paper so maybe thats where somone like CL49 was picked up during the migration period, the heruli did rule over the tisza area and the longobards(once their vassals) overthrew them but maybe they also picked people like him up in bohemia re:bylany U152/L2+ hallstatt-celts(though doubtful timewise)
    Last edited by alexfritz; 06-15-2019 at 06:25 AM.
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek&SouthItalian 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%Greek/Albania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  7. #814
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    a look at the paper reveals the answer is no, not collective; and from all we know equating the migration era 'barbarian-invasions' 1to1 to a 'germanic-invasion' is a false premise

    now warriors(arms incl) like CL145 CL146 CL92 CL93 CL97, reputedly all from the same kin-group(farae/clan) all R1b U106/L151+(CL92 U106/L52+), could fit that profile or atleast do not differ from the anglo-saxons or poprad on the PCA, so if that is the 'germanic profile' then the warriors in section east CL49 and (his son)CL53 are then clearly not germanic, also underlined by their Yhg R1b U152(L2/Z367+) or someone like CL63(I1a/Z37+) no longer fully germanic most prob a product of intermixing along the migration route

    there are aslo examples at szolad, as anything in szolad and pannonia ev. ended up in italy, so the barbarian invasion was def not 1to1 a germanic invasion; infact i even speculated that CL121(R1b/Z2103+) might be from the previous ostrogoth context not 'wielbark gothic' but again 'migration era' gothic; and yet regardless of their provenance or migration era altering all of them were still longobards* and defacto part of the barbarian invasion along with all of their known uniparentals(incl vai et al); and judging by how the local italians looked like CL30 &co and how the late-romans are described anything from the barbarian invasions matters for the modern north and central italian clusters (CL36-700ad) because based on that its not add 'north-european' admixture(K's amorim et al) its whatever you can quantify today

    *a longobard as j.jarnut put it(acc to their laws and texts) was anyone that adhered to longobard customs and laws and its recorded that the longobards readily integrated anybody they subjugated along their migration route, someone like CL49 was clearly not a germanic longobard but still a longobard and ?prob culturally germanic, however a christian(in contrast to CL146 &co) yet his gold-cross does show heathen longobard motives

    GNwIl2Q.png

    speculating on CL63 and CL49; CL63 was buried with no arms but in a 'funerary hut' right alongside CL31(contamenated) yet G2a and strong east-asian admixture (?maybe two gepids), they also found a U152+(terminal n.d.) in the tisza area in the avar/magyar paper so maybe thats where somone like CL49 was picked up during the migration period, the heruli did rule over the tisza area and the longobards(once their vassals) overthrew them but maybe they also picked people like him up in bohemia re:bylany U152/L2+ hallstatt-celts(though doubtful timewise)

    All excellent points, though I would just like to comment on CL63's Y-haplogroup, while the paper has labelled him something else under I1a, a member of this forum has gone through the raw data for CL63 (and SZ45) and determined that CL63 is I-Y2245 (under I-Z63), SZ45 appears to be I-Y14999 (under I-L22). Not that this changes anything about CL63 (or SZ45) affiliations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    a look at the paper reveals the answer is no, not collective; and from all we know equating the migration era 'barbarian-invasions' 1to1 to a 'germanic-invasion' is a false premise

    now warriors(arms incl) like CL145 CL146 CL92 CL93 CL97, reputedly all from the same kin-group(farae/clan) all R1b U106/L151+(CL92 U106/L52+), could fit that profile or atleast do not differ from the anglo-saxons or poprad on the PCA, so if that is the 'germanic profile' then the warriors in section east CL49 and (his son)CL53 are then clearly not germanic, also underlined by their Yhg R1b U152(L2/Z367+) or someone like CL63(I1a/Z37+) no longer fully germanic most prob a product of intermixing along the migration route

    there are aslo examples at szolad, as anything in szolad and pannonia ev. ended up in italy, so the barbarian invasion was def not 1to1 a germanic invasion; infact i even speculated that CL121(R1b/Z2103+) might be from the previous ostrogoth context not 'wielbark gothic' but again 'migration era' gothic; and yet regardless of their provenance or migration era altering all of them were still longobards* and defacto part of the barbarian invasion along with all of their known uniparentals(incl vai et al); and judging by how the local italians looked like CL30 &co and how the late-romans are described anything from the barbarian invasions matters for the modern north and central italian clusters (CL36-700ad) because based on that its not add 'north-european' admixture(K's amorim et al) its whatever you can quantify today

    *a longobard as j.jarnut put it(acc to their laws and texts) was anyone that adhered to longobard customs and laws and its recorded that the longobards readily integrated anybody they subjugated along their migration route, someone like CL49 was clearly not a germanic longobard but still a longobard and ?prob culturally germanic, however a christian(in contrast to CL146 &co) yet his gold-cross does show heathen longobard motives

    GNwIl2Q.png

    speculating on CL63 and CL49; CL63 was buried with no arms but in a 'funerary hut' right alongside CL31(contamenated) yet G2a and strong east-asian admixture (?maybe two gepids), they also found a U152+(terminal n.d.) in the tisza area in the avar/magyar paper so maybe thats where somone like CL49 was picked up during the migration period, the heruli did rule over the tisza area and the longobards(once their vassals) overthrew them but maybe they also picked people like him up in bohemia re:bylany U152/L2+ hallstatt-celts(though doubtful timewise)
    I runned myself against the "lombards" and I did not got a very good fit. Some of them are Tuscan + "Germanic". And Since I am 50% Germanic Swedish i thought i would be somewhat close to them.
    Hidden Content

    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish+36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

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  11. #816
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    As others have pointed out, they were a pretty mixed group.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s414...24-4/figures/3
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-15-2019 at 05:51 PM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 930 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1075 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1660 AD).

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  13. #817
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    As others have pointed out, they were a pretty mixed group.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s414...24-4/figures/3
    they mixed CEU and GBR to get a result for representing "central europe"
    why did they not mix TSI and IBS to get a representation balkan/north balkan ?

    I feel it is a "doctored" graph to highlight central european lombard early mixture

    I would like to see the CEU and GBR split graph

    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4o
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d1-P109
    Maternal side Grandfather .......R1b-S8172
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

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    I remember once on a Facebook group a couple North Italians were perplexed to why they scored some British isles Admixture on 23andMe..
    Someone mentioned Lombards and pointed to this explanation below:
    20A51052-9DD9-48D2-89C2-8F9D35FD2C5A.jpeg

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  17. #819
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    they mixed CEU and GBR to get a result for representing "central europe"
    why did they not mix TSI and IBS to get a representation balkan/north balkan ?

    I feel it is a "doctored" graph to highlight central european lombard early mixture

    I would like to see the CEU and GBR split graph


    I’m afraid you’ll have to ask them, my friend.


    Edit: Or you might try reading their Supplemental, where I believe they explained why they did things, the way they did.

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM1_ESM.pdf
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-15-2019 at 09:26 PM.
    Known Paper Trail: 45.3% English, 29.7% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian. Or: 87.5% British Isles, 6.25% German & 6.25% Italian.
    LivingDNA: 88.1% British Isles (59.7% English, 27% Scottish & 1.3% Irish), 5.9% Europe South (Aegian 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%), 4.4% Europe NW (Scandinavia) & 1.6% Europe East, (Mordovia).
    FT Big Y: I1-Z140 branch I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 930 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 1075 AD) >A13243/YSEQ (circa 1660 AD).

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  19. #820
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    they mixed CEU and GBR to get a result for representing "central europe"
    why did they not mix TSI and IBS to get a representation balkan/north balkan ?

    I feel it is a "doctored" graph to highlight central european lombard early mixture

    I would like to see the CEU and GBR split graph
    Has anyone worked with the raw data for these Collegno and Szolad samples? Perhaps we could get another view outside of this paper.

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