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Thread: R-Z93 in 100% British autosomal

  1. #1
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    R-Z93 in 100% British autosomal

    Hey,

    My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

    What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

    I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

    Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by penlanach; 02-10-2019 at 11:31 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by penlanach View Post
    Hey,

    My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

    What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

    I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

    Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

    Thanks!
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    Most R-Z93 travelled east of the Indo-European homeland however it still has a decent presence mainly in East Europe/West Russia, as I'm guessing a decent chunk of it travelled westward alongside R-Z283 (European R1a) perhaps?

    The origin of R-Z93 was around East Europe/West Russia (similar to R-Z283) so it's not unusual for it to be observed in fair amounts in the European continent. The oldest R-Z93 sample I'm aware of was found near Samara (Southwest Russia) and dated to 4658 calBP (calendar years before 1950).

    Looking at the link above, R-Z93 has a noticeable presence in Russia, East Europe and even West Europe, most of which come under subclades with no South Asians, which suggests these subclades went westwards from the Indo-European homeland instead of eastwards. Your R-Z2122 subclade is a good example of this.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2122/

    Your subclade appears to be a majority-European/Russian one. Men under this subclade are usually located in Russia and East Europe, however a significant amount are located in Western Europe. Only a few men under R-Z2122 are located outside of Europe/Russia, and none of them are located within South Asia (where the majority of R-Z93 today is found).

    As for how it got to the British Isles, I'm guessing the same way as R-Z283 did (via Viking invaders). R1a in the British Isles is mainly observed around places where Vikings entered the British Isles. East England and Scotland are two particularly notable regions of entry and I believe they entered Ireland too. These Viking entry points line up astonishingly well with what you've said about the history of your family.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA: M5a1a1-G9064A


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA: U7a3a12-C15433T

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by penlanach View Post
    Hey,

    My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

    What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

    I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

    Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

    Thanks!
    It probably arrived in the British isles after the Bronze Age. Either with Alan/Sarmatian mercenaries or some ancient Central/East Europeans. Halstatt Celts seem to have some scythian-like admixture and maybe some Proto-Celts from Central Europe had a bit Z93 from Scythians or other Iranics which settled in Central Europe.

    To further explore this issue I ran a series of mixture models using the G25/nMonte method. Below is an example of one of the models that made good sense and also returned a fairly reasonable statistical fit. Hence, it appears to me that DA112 was in some part, perhaps mostly, of Scythian origin, with resulting minor admixture from Iron Age Central Asia.

    Hallstatt_Bylany_DA112
    Scythian_Hungary,80.6
    Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111,16.2
    Scythian_Pazyryk,3.2
    [1] distance%=3.9953

    Since it's extremely unlikely that DA112 was the only Hallstatt Celt with this type of genetic structure, then it's reasonable to conclude that at least some Hallstatt populations harbored Scythian ancestry. Admittedly, this isn't a very surprising conclusion considering the close contacts, as inferred from archaeological data, between the Hallstatt culture and various nomadic groups with assumed origins far to the east of Central Europe. In fact, here's what the Damgaard et al. supplement says about the Bylany burial site:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/0...hallstatt.html
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 02-10-2019 at 01:19 PM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by penlanach View Post
    Hey,

    My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

    What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

    I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

    Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

    Thanks!
    Our R1a-Z93 lineage is a marker of ancient steppe Indo-Iranians. Ultimately it is from the Central-East European Corded Ware culture, which is generally seen as ancestral to Balto-Slavs and Indo-Iranians. Maybe they are also ancestral to Italo-Celts and Germanics but this is not 100% confirmed yet. The Corded Ware culture was from a modern point of view genetically very North European and a mix of Eneolithic steppe people and GAC-like farmers.

    The first 100% confirmed R1a-Z93 was found in the Poltavka culture but there are also rumours about R1a-Z93 in the Sredny Stog culture. In my opinion R1a-Z93 is ultimately from the Dnjepr region but migrated eastwards to Central Asia and South Asia via Middle Dnjepr culture<Fatyanovo-Balanovo<Abashevo<Andronovo/Sintashta. The first 3 cultures i named here are CWC subcultures.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  9. #5
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    Maybe we have someone of your surname tested at R1a Project with more complex test. You can PM me your surname if you want. I'm staff member here and we have gathered many rare lines.

    For the story on how Z93 arrived to the British Isles - I think that @coldmountains and @aaronbee2010 are correct.
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3 226>YP5224
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Z17902> L591>Y5582
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020*
    R1b-P312>U152>L2>DF103

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  11. #6
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    You need Big Y-700 from FTDNA + YFull.

    Easy.

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by penlanach View Post
    Hey,

    My Livingdna results came back, and as expected I am 100% GB with a colossal 58% Cumbria related DNA. This isnt a surprise as my family have resided in Cumbria and slightly further afield for generations. A few Irish, a few Scots and a few Yorkshiremen in the midst.

    What I am surprised about is my Y-DNA haplogroup: R-Z93 and subclade R-Z2122. Living DNA describes this haplogroup as the 'main Asian' group, and says that less than 1% of Britons have this paternal lineage.

    I guess it was brought at some point in the Bronze Age but I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge or theories about R-Z93 presence in the British Isles?

    Further does anybody have any info on R-Z2122? I can find precious little online.

    Thanks!
    It is present in the Ashkenazi Jews (CTS6, M582 variety).
    Was possibly present in the Huns/Khazars.
    See also:
    R1b1a1a1 (9.21%), R1a1a1b2a1a (7.89%), R1a1a1b2a2b (6.58%), R1a1a1b2a2 (5.26%), C3c1
    (6.58%) 频率相对较高,对应的 SNP 高频突变位点分别为 (M478), (Y7), (Z2122), (Z2124),
    (M77, M86).
    http://www.ivpp.cas.cn/cbw/rlxxb/xbw...9362334965.pdf

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mich Glitch View Post
    You need Big Y-700 from FTDNA + YFull.

    Easy.
    It depends what his end goal is I guess. If he only wants a more detailed subclade result on YFull then he's better off getting the R1a-Z93 Panel from YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php...ducts_id=11867). This test will give him a very detailed result at a fraction of the cost of a full Y-DNA sequence.

    If he wants to help expand the Z2122 tree, then he will need Y-DNA full sequencing. There are a few notable options, with different pricing and advantages:

    1. Full Genomes Y Elite

    This test costs around $395 for the test (if you use the FGCAG18 coupon code) + $35 for standard shipping (I've messaged a representative and they can do slow shipping for $10). We don't know how good at SNP discovery the Big Y-700 service is compared to Y Elite, however Y Elite is somewhat famous for having a very accurate service, delivering a high number of newly discovered SNPs (noticeably more so than the discontinued Big Y-500 service, however the Big Y-700 service is unknown at this point). This service doesn't come with .BAM analysis and novel SNP discovery, so YFull is needed for this.

    2. Dante Labs WGS

    This test currently costs (on offer) $299 (226.68 on the international site - usually $399, or 300) with free shipping , however they have had an aggressive Black Friday price in the past ($199, or 150), so this test can be very tempting if they give another aggressive offer in the future. I've been told that SNP discovery is pretty much identical to Y Elite however STR detection will probably be less accurate, although external utilities can still find 5000 STRs from Dante Labs, with a varying degree of reliability (Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....050#post545050). The main problem is that you will probably be waiting a year for your results, however at a low price, this may be worth it. Another very big advantage is that this service analyses your whole genome, so you get autosomal and mtDNA results too, which can be very advantageous for various reasons (i.e. medical reasons, discovering various SNPs that have an effect on your health). This service doesn't come with .BAM analysis and novel SNP discovery, so YFull is needed for this.

    3. FamilyTreeDNA Big Y-500

    This test currently costs $649, with $9.95 shipping, however offers for $499 were somewhat frequent with Big Y-500 (and I'm assuming nothing has changed), so I would wait until then if one chooses to buy this service. This test is the most expensive here regardless of whether there's an offer or not. The main advantages of this service are that novel SNP discovery is included, so YFull is not mandatory for this (although I still recommend it!). The other advantage is more specific to ethnic Europeans (i.e. penlanach). Europeans are very frequent on FTDNA's database (the most of any group of people), so new Big Y-500 customers benefit a lot from having access to said database, so they can find their closest Y-DNA matches there (the degree of success depends on the customers Y-DNA subclade).

    YFull accepts .BAM files from all three services above. I would absolutely recommend YFull to everybody, as you get access to YFull's user databases for closest matches (FTDNA's database is noticeably larger though), SNP discovery, and they add you to their public tree, which is the best experimental Y-DNA tree on the internet right now (in my opinion)!

    As for what service I would recommend, I would wait for more information to come out about how good the Big Y-700 service is for coverage and SNP discovery, as it's a new service. This useful website (https://haplogroup-r.org/stats.html) shows frequency of SNP discovery with various sequencing services via Est. Years/SNP (the lower the better), and it could be worthwhile to wait for some Big Y-700 results to be added to the table.

    All 3 services are very good in my opinion, and the choice ultimately comes down to the person making it, as different advantages are important to different people. In particular, Big Y-700 appears to be a good choice for ethnic Europeans, including penlanach, however I would still wait for more information regarding their coverage and how good their SNP discovery turns out to be.
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 02-11-2019 at 11:10 AM.
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA: M5a1a1-G9064A


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA: U7a3a12-C15433T

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  17. #9
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    I have indentified a clade of @penlanach, because he revealed me the surname and location. There is just one such person tested at FTDNA but luckily, his match is a member of R1a Project and he also tested with Big Y.

    He is placed under Y52, what makes Scythian or Alanic origins of his paternal lineage very plausible.
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2902>Y3 226>YP5224
    N1c-L1026>CTS10760>VL29>Z4908>L550>L1025>M2783>Z17902> L591>Y5582
    R1a-Z282>Z280>CTS1211>YP1019>YP1020*
    R1b-P312>U152>L2>DF103

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  19. #10
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    Welcome to the R1a UK club, Vikings or Normans, or further back with Roman troops, maybe of the Sarmatian flavour, is your surname Considered a Norman surname or Viking? Or?
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    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
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