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Thread: North Norwegian Hunter-Gatherer on GEDmatch

  1. #11
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    It would be interesting to have him in G25.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
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    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    So the Pre-Indo-European substrate in Scandinavia were basically Estonians. But his Y-DNA haplogroup was I2a1b.

    I2a1b, which is common among Slavs, was probably also assimilated by them from Estonian-like hunter-gatherers:

    http://blog.vayda.pl/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120/

     


    They were definetly not. Estonians just have more Hunter-Gather ancestry than other Europeans but most of there ancestry is still steppe+ EEF. I2a1b among Slavs was probably not directly mediated by WHG/SHGs and is most likely a GAC-like which somehow managed to expand despite the IE migrations into Central Europe.
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 02-12-2019 at 12:43 PM.
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    They were definetly not. Estonians just have more Hunter-Gather ancestry than other Europeans but most of there ancestry is still steppe+ EEF. I2a1b among Slavs was not directly mediated by WHG/SHGs and is most likely a GAC-like which somehow managed to expand despite the IE migrations into Central Europe.
    From today's dispersion of I2a1b (actually I2a1a2) root clades, it follows that Isles clade called Disles and Slavic called Dinaric most probably spread from the territory which is today called Germany.
    So, yes, I2a1a2 was probably part of GAC populations living in the Central-North Europe in time when the Steppe pops expanded to West Europe.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
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    Croatian 2.39
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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    They were definetly not. Estoanians just have more Hunter-Gather ancestry than other Europeans but most of there ancestry is still steppe+ EEF. I2a1b among Slavs was not directly mediated by WHG/SHGs and is most likely a GAC-like which somehow managed to expand despite the IE migrations into Central Europe.
    I agree more with Tomenable it seems like a linking pin between NNW HG and NE HG. Somewhat differentiated form Loschbour that has a much more West Euro profile:


    Loschbour
    V3
    Population
    East_European 27.60
    West_European 71.40
    Mediterranean 0.10
    Neo_African 0.13
    West_Asian -
    South_Asian -
    Northeast_Asian 0.11
    Southeast_Asian 0.41
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian -
    Northwest_African 0.05
    Palaeo_African 0.20


    K15
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 34.51
    2 Baltic 33.51
    3 Atlantic 23.86
    4 Eastern_Euro 7.33


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Estonian @ 18.022207
    2 Southwest_Finnish @ 18.504248
    3 La_Brana-1 @ 18.620298
    4 Finnish @ 19.243347
    5 Swedish @ 19.907436
    6 North_Swedish @ 20.406229
    7 Polish @ 20.541538
    8 South_Polish @ 21.106747
    9 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 21.693335
    10 Lithuanian @ 21.971430
    11 East_German @ 22.006315
    12 Belorussian @ 22.080507
    13 Ukrainian @ 22.196871
    14 North_German @ 22.324158
    15 Norwegian @ 22.415981
    16 Russian_Smolensk @ 23.089380
    17 North_Dutch @ 23.146629
    18 Hungarian @ 23.232897
    19 Estonian_Polish @ 23.695038
    20 Danish @ 23.754076

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +50% Swedish @ 14.118155


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +25% Swedish +25% Swedish @ 14.118155


    Of course it's because of the HG factor as such more 'Baltic-like', but Loschbour is more Western/Atlantic Europe.

    Atlantic in K15 is missing in Steigen!
    Last edited by Finn; 02-12-2019 at 12:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I agree more with Tomenable it seems like a linking pin between NNW HG and NE HG. Somewhat differentiated form Loschbour that has a much more West Euro profile:


    Loschbour
    V3
    Population
    East_European 27.60
    West_European 71.40
    Mediterranean 0.10
    Neo_African 0.13
    West_Asian -
    South_Asian -
    Northeast_Asian 0.11
    Southeast_Asian 0.41
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian -
    Northwest_African 0.05
    Palaeo_African 0.20


    K15
    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 34.51
    2 Baltic 33.51
    3 Atlantic 23.86
    4 Eastern_Euro 7.33


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Estonian @ 18.022207
    2 Southwest_Finnish @ 18.504248
    3 La_Brana-1 @ 18.620298
    4 Finnish @ 19.243347
    5 Swedish @ 19.907436
    6 North_Swedish @ 20.406229
    7 Polish @ 20.541538
    8 South_Polish @ 21.106747
    9 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 21.693335
    10 Lithuanian @ 21.971430
    11 East_German @ 22.006315
    12 Belorussian @ 22.080507
    13 Ukrainian @ 22.196871
    14 North_German @ 22.324158
    15 Norwegian @ 22.415981
    16 Russian_Smolensk @ 23.089380
    17 North_Dutch @ 23.146629
    18 Hungarian @ 23.232897
    19 Estonian_Polish @ 23.695038
    20 Danish @ 23.754076

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +50% Swedish @ 14.118155


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Lithuanian +25% Swedish +25% Swedish @ 14.118155


    Of course it's because of the HG factor as such more 'Baltic-like', but Loschbour is more Western/Atlantic Europe.

    Atlantic in K15 is missing in Steigen!
    It makes zero sense to break down ancients with models that are designed for moderns.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorkymon View Post
    It makes zero sense to break down ancients with models that are designed for moderns.
    Agree, you can't use them for exact measurements but still for were the winds blows.....

    All HG give high affinity with the Balticum because of the anachronistisch comparison!

    Still we are able to see the very very global difference, Loschbour in the Luxembourg area, is more Western.....Steigen more Northeast.

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  13. #17
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    I dont think modern calculators can capture the genetic reality of such ancient samples very well. While they may appear relatively close to modern populations on lets say K36, they are actually incredibly distant on something like g25 or even a calculator that is designed for ancient samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorcelow View Post
    I dont think modern calculators can capture the genetic reality of such ancient samples very well. While they may appear relatively close to modern populations on lets say K36, they are actually incredibly distant on something like g25 or even a calculator that is designed for ancient samples.
    Yes they are incredible fare on distance and there is a lot of drift etc.

    Still Loschbour is an example of WHG, that was an input in the West European population.

    Steigen is an example of SHG and is an input in the NNW European population.

    That’s basic and I guess not weird to think.

    Do admixtures, indeed made for modern populations confirm this? Yes in a certain way because taken with tons of salt you can still see Loschbour has a more West European/Atlantic affinity, Steigen has a much more Northern orientation.

    What’s not correct in this respect???
    Last edited by Finn; 02-12-2019 at 04:17 PM.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    From today's dispersion of I2a1b (actually I2a1a2) root clades, it follows that Isles clade called Disles and Slavic called Dinaric most probably spread from the territory which is today called Germany.
    So, yes, I2a1a2 was probably part of GAC populations living in the Central-North Europe in time when the Steppe pops expanded to West Europe.
    This is the most likely scenario. Another scenario is that it was already present among Sredny Stog and PIEs. But direct mediation via surviving Hunter Gathers is the least likely scenario. Europeans except of Balts and some far eastern Europeans got almost all of their Hunter Gather ancestry from EEFs(who absorbed WHGs) and steppe tribes. The number of Hunter Gathers in most of Bronze Age Europe was probably to small to have a big genetic effect on the modern european gene pool
    Y-DNA: R1a> R-M417> R-Z645> R-Z93> R-Z94> R-Y3 (Sredny Stog culture)> R-L657> R-Y4(Andronovo)> R-Y6> R-Y5> R-Y920* (Pashtun)

  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    This is the most likely scenario. Another scenario is that it was already present among Sredny Stog and PIEs. But direct mediation via surviving Hunter Gathers is the least likely scenario. Europeans except of Balts and some far eastern Europeans got almost all of their Hunter Gather ancestry from EEFs(who absorbed WHGs) and steppe tribes. The number of Hunter Gathers in most of Bronze Age Europe was probably to small to have a big genetic effect on the modern european gene pool
    I doubt that I2a1a2 was present in Sredny Stog and Yamnaya. There are documented only I2a2 clades. Direct mediation via Hunter Gatherers is also possible knowing that Balto-Slavic stems from Baltic_BA which has partial origin from Baltic HG. But Disles clade with TMRCA about 2300 BC came to Isles probably from the territory of Germany (together with Beakers), so I opt for GAC (Globular Amphora Culture).
    Last edited by ph2ter; 02-12-2019 at 07:36 PM.
     
    Paper Trail MyHeritage K36 G25 Mod. FTDNA
    NW Croatian 87.5%
    Slovenian 6.25%
    Unknown 6.25%
    E. Europe 35.7%
    Balkan 34.4%
    Scandinavia 21.2%
    Baltic 8.7%
    Grenzmark 0.94
    Czechs 0.93,
    Hungary 0.91
    Volhyn 0.91,
    C. Rusyns 0.91
    Slovenia 0.91
    Czech 1.79
    Hungarian 2.02
    Slovenian 2.07
    Croatian 2.39
    Ukrainian 3.01
    East Europe 99%
    Trace 1%

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