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Thread: Who was "Golden Horde European" DA29 from Kazakhstan?

  1. #1
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    Who was "Golden Horde European" DA29 from Kazakhstan?

    "Golden Horde European", from Kazakhstan, years 1260-1370 AD, is genetically much closer to Balts than to Slavs:

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map...7.1390/65.6275

    Karasuyr, Burial 5, Bedpakdala, Karasuyr Kazakhstan Central Steppe, Male, R1a-YP575:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP575/

    DA29 GoldenHordeEuro, Geographical coordinates: 46,9972222222 66,2858333333



    ^^^ His Eurogenes K13 results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Baltic 55.9
    2 North_Atlantic 27.04
    3 West_Med 10.14
    4 West_Asian 3.23
    5 East_Med 2.9
    6 Red_Sea 0.54
    7 Amerindian 0.25

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Lithuanian 4.2

    2 Estonian_Polish 6.71
    3 Belorussian 7.03
    4 Russian_Smolensk 7.42
    5 Estonian 8.84
    6 Southwest_Russian 9.34
    7 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.72
    8 Polish 10
    9 Kargopol_Russian 10.69
    10 Erzya 11.55
    11 Ukrainian 11.78
    12 East_Finnish 12.5
    13 Finnish 13.02
    14 Ukrainian_Lviv 13.37
    15 South_Polish 13.41
    16 Southwest_Finnish 16.08
    17 Croatian 19.31
    18 La_Brana-1 21.15
    19 Moldavian 22.22
    20 Hungarian 23.24

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 98.5% Lithuanian + 1.5% Sardinian @ 4.09
    2 99.6% Lithuanian + 0.4% Cyprian @ 4.19
    3 99.6% Lithuanian + 0.4% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.19
    4 99.5% Lithuanian + 0.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.2
    5 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Samaritan @ 4.2
    6 99.5% Lithuanian + 0.5% Bulgarian @ 4.2
    7 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Lebanese_Christian @ 4.2
    8 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Ashkenazi @ 4.2
    9 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Central_Greek @ 4.2
    10 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Italian_Jewish @ 4.2
    11 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% East_Sicilian @ 4.2
    12 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% South_Italian @ 4.2
    13 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Moroccan @ 4.2
    14 99.8% Lithuanian + 0.2% Tunisian @ 4.2
    15 98.7% Lithuanian + 1.3% Estonian_Polish @ 4.2
    16 99.9% Lithuanian + 0.1% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.2
    17 99.7% Lithuanian + 0.3% Ukrainian @ 4.2
    18 100% Lithuanian + 0% Tunisian_Jewish @ 4.2
    19 100% Lithuanian + 0% Libyan_Jewish @ 4.2
    20 100% Lithuanian + 0% West_Sicilian @ 4.2

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    I have some theories about his ethnicity which I've already shared with a few users, but I'm curious about your opinions.

    What was a genetically Lithuanian-like person doing in the middle of Kazakhstan's Steppe in late 1200s or early 1300s?

    I was told that his Y-DNA subclade - R1a-YP575 - is of Baltic (not Slavic) origin, even though it is also common among modern Belarusians etc.

    See this subclade on YFull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP575/

    There was supposedly a Baltic tribe called Goliadz or Goladz living in the middle of Russia, see the map below:



    ^^^
    But how do we know that DA29 was from there, and not from Balts in more western areas at the Baltic Sea?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-12-2019 at 02:48 PM.

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  5. #3
    In 2017 100km south of Kiev near Ros river there were Baltic burials were found dated to XI-XII centuries, maybe it's one of their descendants that got captured or something.

    https://www.15min.lt/naujiena/aktual...yna-582-886014

    https://www.ukrinform.ru/rubric-cult...nigovsine.html

    https://ppt-online.org/485316


    slide-1.jpg

    121.JPG
    Last edited by teftelis; 02-12-2019 at 03:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have some theories about his ethnicity which I've already shared with a few users, but I'm curious about your opinions.

    What was a genetically Lithuanian-like person doing in the middle of Kazakhstan's Steppe in late 1200s or early 1300s?
    You might want to read more from the link in my signature. But to summarise, Mongols used to carry around engineers, linguists and other specialised servants to help them in the areas where they felt they had less experience. Alternatively that could also have been a slave.
    Known ancestry: 1/2 Romanian Northeast + 1/4 Romanian Southeast + 1/4 Romanian Bukovina Ukraine
    23andme: 53.6% Greek & Balkan (4% Broadly South Euro), 35.7% East Euro, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 6.5% Broadly Euro
    MyHeritage: 92.2% Balkan, 5.8% English, 1.1% Eskimo, 0.9% Japanese
    FTDNA: 45% Southeast Euro, 45% East Euro, 4% British Isles, 3% West Middle East, 2% NE Asia
    Global 25: Anatolia_N 50.2%, EHG 32.6%, CHG 11.2%, WHG 3.8%, East Asian 2.2%
    Hidden Content

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  13. #7
    Some additional info on that burial.

    https://www.academia.edu/36877181/E....ral_Kazakhstan


    121.JPG


    Two kurgans (1 and 5) had obelisks made from local black quartzite, Kurgan 5 also had an anthropomorphic stele from gray shale .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    There was supposedly a Baltic tribe called Goliadz or Goladz living in the middle of Russia, see the map below:
    The map looks like around AD 540 - make that AD 560 - so I guess their position is based on a hypothetical archaeological identification.

    According to Wikipedia, for what it's worth: "The Eastern Galindians (East Galindian: *Galindai, Russian: Goliadj, голядь, from Old East Slavic *Golędĭ), an extinct East Baltic tribe, lived from the 4th century in the basin of the Protva River, near the modern Russian towns of Mozhaysk, Vereya, and Borovsk. It is probable that the Eastern Galindians, as the bearers of the Moshchiny culture, also occupied all the Kaluga Oblast before the Early East Slavs peopled the Moshchiny culture's area at the turn of the 7th and 8th centuries.

    The Russian chronicles first mention Eastern Galindians as Goliadj in 1058. Prince Yury Dolgorukiy arranged a campaign against them in 1147, the year of the first mention of Moscow in the Russian chronicles. Subsequent chronicles do not mention the Eastern Galindians. Nevertheless, the Russians probably did not completely assimilate them until the 15th (or 16th) century."

    So it is plausible some would still be around in c AD 1300, whether Slavified or not. Though no real reason to think this guy was one of them.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 02-12-2019 at 07:13 PM.

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    That timeline is not far away from this battle:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blue_Waters

    And somewhere within Gediminas timeline, so could be a captive from Lithuanian - Horde previous conflicts.

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  19. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by teftelis View Post
    In 2017 100km south of Kiev near Ros river there were Baltic burials were found dated to XI-XII centuries, maybe it's one of their descendants that got captured or something.

    https://www.15min.lt/naujiena/aktual...yna-582-886014

    https://www.ukrinform.ru/rubric-cult...nigovsine.html

    https://ppt-online.org/485316


    slide-1.jpg

    121.JPG


    Also to further expand on this Russian primary chronicle mentions Yaroslaw the Wise tried to secure Kievan Rus borders from nomadic attacks, and in the same chronicle it says in XI century on the valley of Ros river semi-nomadic "own pagans" settled. Who likely helped to defend these borders. But again same as Galindian theory there's a big time gap and not enough historical sources to make any definite conclusions.

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