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Thread: "100% Sure R1a Originated in India - N.Rai" - Paper coming soon

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    "100% Sure R1a Originated in India - N.Rai" - Paper coming soon

    Hints to the title of this thread were already dropped by G.Chaubey and K.Thangaraj in their rebuttal to an article in a newspaper.
    "Moreover, there is evidence which is consistent with the early presence of several R1a branches in India (our unpublished data)."

    However this is the first time a clear and elaborate assertion has been made by Niraj Rai who is also part of the same study, who asserts they have more than 10,000 samples of R1a individuals with deep diversity rooting back to 15,000 years ago in India. Which at the minimum proves R1-M198 originated in India, as per the timeframe mentioned by him. The sample size of this to be published study is approximately 4 times the size of Underhill's last paper and I am guessing majority of it is local.

    Watch from 5:00 minutes mark to 8 minutes mark for Niraj Rai's take.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVXQcgcTwz0

    Since this will not be a STR only based study, only way to prove R1a did not originate here is for a competing study to show similar and much deeper diversity outside India.
    However I would not pin my hopes on any competing study disproving this, as most diversity outside India is already well known.

    Ancient DNA haplogroups would have been of help to falsify this finding only if deep diversity till Z93 was found in this to be published paper.
    However the older branches alive in India in this study go much further back in time which makes the aDNA evidence untenable.

    Using deductive logic and going by the recently published paper from Reich and MPI-SHH Jena group, which assert , CHG/Iran-N as the tracer dye of PIE spread and this paper when it will be published it will be pretty clear where is the PIE homeland.

    Personally for me 2019 would be the year which solves the PIE debate as far as India/South Asia goes, though on a larger scale many things would need to be worked out backwards in light of these new findings.Indeed it will be a long journey ahead for many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    Hints to the title of this thread were already dropped by G.Chaubey and K.Thangaraj in their rebuttal to an article in a newspaper.
    "Moreover, there is evidence which is consistent with the early presence of several R1a branches in India (our unpublished data)."

    However this is the first time a clear and elaborate assertion has been made by Niraj Rai who is also part of the same study, who asserts they have more than 10,000 samples of R1a individuals with deep diversity rooting back to 15,000 years ago in India. Which at the minimum proves R1-M198 originated in India, as per the timeframe mentioned by him. The sample size of this to be published study is approximately 4 times the size of Underhill's last paper and I am guessing majority of it is local.

    Watch from 5:00 minutes mark to 8 minutes mark for Niraj Rai's take.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVXQcgcTwz0

    Since this will not be a STR only based study, only way to prove R1a did not originate here is for a competing study to show similar and much deeper diversity outside India.
    However I would not pin my hopes on any competing study disproving this, as most diversity outside India is already well known.

    Ancient DNA haplogroups would have been of help to falsify this finding only if deep diversity till Z93 was found in this to be published paper.
    However the older branches alive in India in this study go much further back in time which makes the aDNA evidence untenable.

    Using deductive logic and going by the recently published paper from Reich and MPI-SHH Jena group, which assert , CHG/Iran-N as the tracer dye of PIE spread and this paper when it will be published it will be pretty clear where is the PIE homeland.

    Personally for me 2019 would be the year which solves the PIE debate as far as India/South Asia goes, though on a larger scale many things would need to be worked out backwards in light of these new findings.Indeed it will be a long journey ahead for many.
    For a population the size of India that 10000 R1a individuals is a good number. And indeed we have seen, in the very limited data we have, evidence of some basal lines.

    But the issue to me is whether or not Rai is able to prove the origins of M417 in India as it the M417 line that is often associated with Indo-Europeans. If he is seeing multiple M417 lines in India - beyond Z93, Z283 and CTS4385 - that would indeed be persuasive but not dispositive. To be certain we will need ancient DNA.

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    I can’t even imagine in which direction the debate about the IE homeland will develop if this information proves to be true:
    autosomes against haplogroup diversity / haplogroup diversity is not a marker of homeland / Arians leave India and came back? I read some time ago that the old R1a branches were found in India but the researchers were not completely sure of this . It will be very fun.
    Last edited by Ral; 02-13-2019 at 05:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    For a population the size of India that 10000 R1a individuals is a good number. And indeed we have seen, in the very limited data we have, evidence of some basal lines.

    But the issue to me is whether or not Rai is able to prove the origins of M417 in India as it the M417 line that is often associated with Indo-Europeans. If he is seeing multiple M417 lines in India - beyond Z93, Z283 and CTS4385 - that would indeed be persuasive but not dispositive. To be certain we will need ancient DNA.
    If these branches are very old, they will probably be declared irrelevant to the debate as well as the R2 haplogroup.

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    It should be no surprise to find basal R1 lineages in India, completely outside the scope of the Indo-European topic. The Indus_Periphery samples looked like ASE + Central Asian Neolithics, who themselves had 10-20% ancestry in the ANE/Botai/WSHG neighborhood of things, and all of whom could likely have carried R1 in large numbers.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    For a population the size of India that 10000 R1a individuals is a good number. And indeed we have seen, in the very limited data we have, evidence of some basal lines.

    But the issue to me is whether or not Rai is able to prove the origins of M417 in India as it the M417 line that is often associated with Indo-Europeans. If he is seeing multiple M417 lines in India - beyond Z93, Z283 and CTS4385 - that would indeed be persuasive but not dispositive. To be certain we will need ancient DNA.
    Yes agree with you on ancient DNA and the evidence being persuasive. Though the scientists involved in this paper have been tracking this debate from the genetics side for atleast a decade. I would give them the benefit of doubt that they know what they are implying in the larger context when they say R1a originated in India and how it impacts overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    I can’t even imagine in which direction the debate about the IE homeland will develop if this information proves to be true:
    autosomes against haplogroup diversity / haplogroup diversity is not a marker of homeland / Arians leave India and come back? I read some time ago that the old R1a branches were found in India but the researchers were not completely sure of this . It will be very fun.
    Yes fun, for sure it would go something like this.

    1) Old R1a originated in India in a matriarchal society, speaking a different language - X.

    2) By the time of M417 they got introduced to PIE, and changed to patriarchy, since this would have involved only men, probably trying to escape matriarchal abuse ?.

    3) And some of those under Z93 came back to India and introduced IA into India and changed 75% of India to a patriarchal society speaking IA.

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    I hope someone releases paper on Y DNA R2 too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noman View Post
    I hope someone releases paper on Y DNA R2 too.
    That would be nice.

    From what I've seen so far, most R2 in India comes under R-L295, which appears to be a Proto-Dravidian group which came from the Zagros Mountains in my opinion.

    I can't find any scientific literature dedicated exclusively to R2 though
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    * MGMs MGF: R1a-M420 > M198 > Z93 > L657 > Y7 - ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    It should be no surprise to find basal R1 lineages in India, completely outside the scope of the Indo-European topic. The Indus_Periphery samples looked like ASE + Central Asian Neolithics, who themselves had 10-20% ancestry in the ANE/Botai/WSHG neighborhood of things, and all of whom could likely have carried R1 in large numbers.
    Some time ago I made prediction that subclades of R1a would be found in India of the Harappan time.
    This prediction was based on the conclusions of some experts that some of the Indian branches of R1a are not very similar to European ones + I read that in India of the Early Harrapan time and even pre-Harappan time there was some groups of non-autochthonous population, probably from the north. Probably the flow of genes from central Asia to India exists a very long time.
    Last edited by Ral; 02-13-2019 at 05:00 PM.

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