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Thread: "100% Sure R1a Originated in India - N.Rai" - Paper coming soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    They're clearly talking about modern Y-DNA, based on this folks argued for donkeys R1b originated in Western Europe and now only donkeys believe that : )
    Not saying that R1b was born in Europe, but isn't Villabruna the oldest R1b sample?

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Not saying that R1b was born in Europe, but isn't Villabruna the oldest R1b sample?
    I actually specified Western Europe, I'm not willing to guess which side of the Urals R1b was most likely to have come from, nor discount the Caucasus.

    R1b Villabruna was a singleton and on an isolated branch that evidently died out, clearly not a paternal ancestor (or even close) to anybody living today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    The most basal branch of R1a pops up in Assyrians and some Middle Eastern people alongside R1b-Z2103, and likely reached the region from the steppes along the Caspian together with R1b. I've never heard or seen of the basal branches of R1a in India, let alone 15,000 years ago. Bring it on, I call BS.
    R1a formed 22800 ybp, TMRCA 18200 ybp as per yfull. I actually wouldn't be surprised if basal clades of R1a show up in pre-IE India, given that ANE was obviously there prior to the steppe invasions and in all likelihood before the arrival of Iran_Neolithic.

    However, those basal R1a clades don't have anything whatsoever to do with the spread of PIE. Only R-M417 will have a role in that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Yes R2 was often treated as the step-child of P with higher focus on R1b, R1a and Q.
    In fact initially many R2 were listed P!

    I think early R2 were Indo-Iranians if not Indo-European. Even in the upcoming Italy paper I would not be surprised if R2-M479 shows up.
    As to why in Dravidians, my perspective: "R2-M124 may have entered India a bit earlier than R1a-Z93, and thus a slightly greater presence in Dravidians and in tribes."
    You can see different perspectives here.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post110143
    Ahh yes, I remember looking at pre-2005 literature with "P1-M124", Q and R. Sad times indeed! lol

    As for R2a, it depends on the subclade. Indo-Aryan branches of R2a would most likely be traced to the BMAC region before IE arrival. I don't believe R2a was existent in the Indo-European homeland (PC Steppe) as there's currently no ancient R2a samples that have ever been found in Europe AFAIK. I believe the two most ancient R2 samples have been found in the Zagros Mountains and dated to the Neolithic (the site where they were found was Ganj Dareh I believe).

    R2a in India can be split into 5 subclades (ISOGG 2019):

    Note: Yes, I am working with very little information here lol this is all guesswork to the best of my ability

    R2a2a-FGC13203 (No South Asian YFull sample that has specific region exists (2 IND samples exist on YFull) - Amber29's father comes under this subclade - He's a Potohar [NE Pakistan] Rajput I believe. It's hard to say anything about this subclade right now).

    R2a2b1b1-Y5080 (Only two SA samples exist and they're both far apart. It's tricky to guess what the history of this subclade is.)

    R2a2b1b2a-SK2142 (Only three YFull SA samples exist and they're all NW SA. You can also include me (IN-PB, so also NW SA) here as well. Four samples really isn't much but considering the NW SA exclusivity, if there is any BMAC branch of R2a then this one is probably it). I come under R-SK2142, so I've dedicated a decent amount of my time to it as well as L295- branches of R2a in general.

    R2a2b1b2b-FGC18147 (FGC18147 is phylogenetically equivalent to L295. Most common R2a branch in SA by 50 miles. This branch (and R-Y26630) have the highest TMRCA values in SA, so probably were the first to enter SA. I would consider L295 perhaps the very first ANE lineage to enter SA in significant amounts! Clustered mainly around Bengal and Andhra Pradesh but frequent throughout most of SA).

    R2a2b1b2c-Y26630 (Only four SA samples exist. 2 are Bengali and 2 are Telugu, so mirrors L295 very well. Similar TMRCA value to L295. Probably entered SA alongside L295).

    As said above, the closest R2a appears to get to IE is a BMAC/Indo-Aryan branch of R2a (R-SK2142). It's distribution pattern is very similar to that of L1a2-M357, which probably made up all L found in ancient Swat Valley IA's (they were all M27-, so M357 is the best candidate).

    DMXX's comment "Some of the R2a-M124 L295- (alongside L1c-M357, J2-M172 plus others?) in northern India were carried by Iron Age Indo-Aryans after their ancestor's passage through both the BMAC and the IVC." seems to fit best with R-SK2142. If I had to be more specific, the Indo-Aryan branch of R-SK2142 may be R-Y1383, as this is the oldest branch with a TMRCA less than 4000 years ago.

    Again, this is nothing but guesswork from me. I need more R-SK2142 samples on YFull
    Last edited by aaronbee2010; 02-13-2019 at 08:04 PM.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-M479 > M124 > V1180 > SK2142 > Y1379 > Y1383 > Y154920* (xZ6135) - M5a1a-G9064A (185G)
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-M343 > M269 > Z2103 > Z2109 > Y14416 > Y35099 > Y84821 - U7a3a-A9852G > G6150A > C15433T
    * MGMs MGF: R1a-M420 > M198 > Z93 > L657 > Y7 - ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by K33 View Post
    R1a formed 22800 ybp, TMRCA 18200 ybp as per yfull. I actually wouldn't be surprised if basal clades of R1a show up in pre-IE India, given that ANE was obviously there prior to the steppe invasions and in all likelihood before the arrival of Iran_Neolithic.

    However, those basal R1a clades don't have anything whatsoever to do with the spread of PIE. Only R-M417 will have a role in that.
    Agreed. Some very ancient R1a subclades (i.e. R1a-M420) may have originated in or near South Asia, but the R1a that dominates Eurasia is R1a-M417, which would've probably originated around East Europe/West Russia as far as I know.
    YFull: YF72440 (FTDNA - IN41220)

    Ancestral Haplos (Punjabi Jatt):
    * Father: R2-M479 > M124 > V1180 > SK2142 > Y1379 > Y1383 > Y154920* (xZ6135) - M5a1a-G9064A (185G)
    * Maternal Uncle: R1b-M343 > M269 > Z2103 > Z2109 > Y14416 > Y35099 > Y84821 - U7a3a-A9852G > G6150A > C15433T
    * MGMs MGF: R1a-M420 > M198 > Z93 > L657 > Y7 - ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    They're clearly talking about modern Y-DNA, based on this folks argued for donkeys R1b originated in Western Europe and now only donkeys believe that : )
    Maybe the donkey were shallow? and not deep enough?

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    Let's hope they will publish as soon as possible.

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  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    I actually specified Western Europe, I'm not willing to guess which side of the Urals R1b was most likely to have come from, nor discount the Caucasus.

    R1b Villabruna was a singleton and on an isolated branch that evidently died out, clearly not a paternal ancestor (or even close) to anybody living today.
    Western Europe? "Villabruna 1 is significant in terms of the history of population genetics: the remains were found to carry Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1a (R-L754). This is the oldest documented example of haplogroup R1b in Western Europe." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripari_Villabruna

    Only a few branches survive to the present. Along with that branch, I would bet there were many other branches present then, with a few surviving through today. After all per Lazaridis: "It seems that there was a hunter-gatherer "reset" ~14,000 years ago that left only the "Villabruna cluster" as the inheritors of Europe"

    I would also not discount the Caucasus where the Villabruna related type + Basal is the early 'CHG.'
    Lazaridis: "Most of the Dzudzuana population’s ancestry was deeply related to the post-glacial western European hunter-gatherers of the ‘Villabruna cluster’3, but it also had ancestry from a lineage that had separated from the great majority of non-African populations before they separated from each other, proving that such ‘Basal Eurasians’ 6,9 were present in West Eurasia twice as early as previously recorded."
    Last edited by parasar; 02-13-2019 at 07:44 PM.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by poi View Post
    My popcorn is buttered and ready

    It would be exciting regardless to have the data. I feel the R1a "battle" (at this moment based on all the aDNA) is very lopsided in favor of the non-India origin... everything points towards Europe and/or NorthAsia, but not South Asia. But, if 15,000 R1a is in India, it would mean we might have to reexamine a few things. Personally, I'm hoping for R1a (particularly L657) point to Indian origin so that the IndoAryan origin gets a bit of a paradigm shift. Otherwise, it's getting a bit boring out there with all the archeological and genetic evidence so far.

    Still, though, none of the early IronAge (>800 BCE) from the supposed Vedic Aryan sites in the Swat Valley turn up any R1a. We see a ton of Es(and Hs, Js, even R2 and Q) but no R1as.
    The above bolded part is already a given, the study is looking for more to the history part of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    The above bolded part is already a given, the study is looking for more to the history part of it.
    R1a - a type of ANE after the Siberian Ma'lta Boy
    R1a-M417 - a type of P/IE in the Pontic Caspian Steppe
    R1a-L657 - a type of IndoAryan

    Are you saying that the lack of R1a-L657 in aDNA from elsewhere (and its concentration in modern SouthAsia), it is a given that R1a-L657 originated in India/SouthAsia?

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