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Thread: FTDNA Y-DNA results no surname matches

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    Good to hear. It's hard to know how you match these people but it seems like a suitable group since they're under the heading [R-P312>L21>DF13>L513...]. It will be interesting to see how you match these people if you were to do further testing. It can be overwhelming at first. When I started off, I just accepted what I was told by the administrators and my matches. I eventually picked up on what they were on about as time went on. Well at least for the moment, it looks like your paternal ancestors were likely from Scotland unless further testing proves otherwise since they're all from Scotland in that group.
    Yeah, they've moved me from the non-descriptive group, into that one. I'm unsure if I should trust that as it seemed to me that they were just eager to put me into a particular group.

    I'm not sure how their findings could've changed so quickly. As you said, all my Cummings matches are far back.

  2. #22
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    I would strongly suggest you also join the L513 haplogroup project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background) - I'm a co-administrator of that project by the way.

    If you check that link I posted, and the first graphic in the text, you'll see the Cummings group down the right border of the light-blue-highlighted major grouping on the left hand side of the picture. It's certainly a busy chart, but the idea is to show the older branching of the whole L513 subgroup down to the surnames that make up the group.

    L513 is a ~3800-year-old haplogroup with many subgroupings and we don't know yet whether it originated on the European continent or in the British Isles/Ireland but it certainly looks like branches were moving freely back and forth for millennia. The L193/S5982 subgroup (which is the light-blue-highlighted group) is a particularly Scottish "superfamily" that looks like it expanded rapidly starting perhaps around 100AD. It may well have already been in Scotland at that time as the bulk of the resulting surnames 1000+ years later are Scottish (well at least Scottish-focused including Norman-Scots etc), or of course it could have a more complicated history; we don't know for sure.

    I looked at your STRs with the other members of that surname project group and you do certainly share a very strong STR signature with kit B270113 - your shared 390=11, 389i=14, 459a=9, 456=16, 607=16, as well as you both having very low CDYa/b markers indicates that your common ancestor with B270113 is much closer to present than with the others in the group. One estimating method puts your and B270113's common ancestor at 1450AD - BUT this entire group appears to have many more STR mutations than statistically usual so I would estimate that ancestor is more recent even perhaps by 200-some years. Dating estimates using either STRs or SNPs just aren't terribly precise especially with small groups.

    Anyway if you do join the L513 the admin will undoubtably sort you into the same group. But there is also both a thriving Yahoo! Group forum and Facebook group where the members regularly review updates and speculation both and that may help to put at least the older (pre-surname) background of your Y-DNA in perspective.

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  4. #23
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    Last edited by FionnSneachta; 02-14-2019 at 01:31 AM.

  5. #24
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    Yes, I have been looking at this: https://fabpedigree.com/s048/f207548.htm

    These names pop up quite frequently in my matches.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave-V View Post
    I would strongly suggest you also join the L513 haplogroup project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background) - I'm a co-administrator of that project by the way.

    If you check that link I posted, and the first graphic in the text, you'll see the Cummings group down the right border of the light-blue-highlighted major grouping on the left hand side of the picture. It's certainly a busy chart, but the idea is to show the older branching of the whole L513 subgroup down to the surnames that make up the group.

    L513 is a ~3800-year-old haplogroup with many subgroupings and we don't know yet whether it originated on the European continent or in the British Isles/Ireland but it certainly looks like branches were moving freely back and forth for millennia. The L193/S5982 subgroup (which is the light-blue-highlighted group) is a particularly Scottish "superfamily" that looks like it expanded rapidly starting perhaps around 100AD. It may well have already been in Scotland at that time as the bulk of the resulting surnames 1000+ years later are Scottish (well at least Scottish-focused including Norman-Scots etc), or of course it could have a more complicated history; we don't know for sure.

    I looked at your STRs with the other members of that surname project group and you do certainly share a very strong STR signature with kit B270113 - your shared 390=11, 389i=14, 459a=9, 456=16, 607=16, as well as you both having very low CDYa/b markers indicates that your common ancestor with B270113 is much closer to present than with the others in the group. One estimating method puts your and B270113's common ancestor at 1450AD - BUT this entire group appears to have many more STR mutations than statistically usual so I would estimate that ancestor is more recent even perhaps by 200-some years. Dating estimates using either STRs or SNPs just aren't terribly precise especially with small groups.

    Anyway if you do join the L513 the admin will undoubtably sort you into the same group. But there is also both a thriving Yahoo! Group forum and Facebook group where the members regularly review updates and speculation both and that may help to put at least the older (pre-surname) background of your Y-DNA in perspective.
    Thanks Dave, I have just joined your group.

    How do I share more with this person? I have looked at the results and it would seem to me that I share a mixture with the whole group?

    Where would this tie my line in with a location in Scotland? The Highlands or the Borders?

    I am a tad confused given the large distance between myself and any Cummings. Is it possible that a lack of testing has resulted in this or am I genuinely far from the clan genetically? If this is the case, what would be the reason for this?

    Is my surname really Elliott for example?

    Kind Regards,
    Nqp15hhu
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 02-14-2019 at 02:18 AM.

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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Where would this tie my line in with a location in Scotland? The Highlands or the Borders?

    I am a tad confused given the large distance between myself and any Cummings. Is it possible that a lack of testing has resulted in this or am I genuinely far from the clan genetically? If this is the case, what would be the reason for this?

    Is my surname really Elliott for example?
    I looked over the Yahoo! Group forum for L513 which has the best archives of location discussions and found this from 2016 from Ann (astansbarger) - I can't comment but am repeating it for awareness. She's describing the Cummings group at that time: "This Cumming(s) cluster has 4 members in the Cummings project there is a genetic distance of 7 at 37 markers between some of the members so it is an old cluster. The ancient territory of the Cummings was in Perthshire, north of Loch Ericht and south of the river Spey, ie. where the MacPhersons later settled. The kit with the SNP BY651 has an oldest Cumming ancestor born 1725 in Inverness." That forum by the way is at https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...3-Project/info.

    For the rest... try this and see if it helps:

    STR markers are known to vary around particular mutation frequencies, but those frequencies have a fairly large variance - meaning they can sometimes "run hot" even as a group. We don't know what causes mutations yet, but some effects seem to affect them all (older fathers at conception seems to be one factor but likely not the only one). And when anyone talks about the "usual" behavior of STRs (or SNPs, for that matter), they're talking about averages across large populations and "everyone's mileage will vary". In the case of this specific Cummings group, I highly suspect that your common Cummings ancestors had a higher number of STR mutations than "normal" over many generations, and your higher genetic distances are a result of that rather than actually large distances the way they would be for groups where the mutation frequencies fit the average better.

    Before I explain why I say that, let me first show you your older line in more detail. Sorry about the poor quality of this picture, but this is the SNP branching in this region under L193/S5982. (by the way if these pictures show up too small, click on them and they should enlarge).


    Test1.png

    I also marked the ages calculated by YFull for two of the SNPs in this sub-tree. The Cummings line seems to have branched off the others about 1200AD or about the time that surnames were being adopted, which makes a certain sense (the age estimation doesn't factor surnames in, by the way).

    So in other words the Elliotts and other surnames are "related" to you back before then, so they're offshoots of an older branch of your male ancestry likely long before your own ancestors took on the Cummings (and variants) surname. So you're not "closer" to them, no - they're slightly older relations of yours than this Cummings group. (And by the way none of THIS analysis is from your own DNA test, this is all based on what's been pieced together from the testing of others).

    Now here's another picture of the relationship between the Cummings group that you sit in - i.e. your (likely) closer relations. This is the same STR data that is shown on the DNA Results pages, only it's been rearranged into what's called a "mutation history tree", sort of a simplified male-line only family tree showing the branching that likely occurred based on the STR mutations in common (or not) between the members of the group. The idea is that when two kits share one or more mutations, those mutations probably occurred in a common ancestor of theirs, and so you can "re-build" a likely pattern of branching based on what kits share which markers (Maurice Gleeson, by the way, has some great videos on Youtube about how to create these trees manually).

    Test2.png

    Now this is produced by a tool so it's by no means perfect and I ran it in about 5 mins so don't expect much . But the "Group MRCA" box at the top represents the common ancestor of the whole group, the other blue boxes represent more recent branching points inside the group (i.e. common ancestors), and the yellow boxes are the kits in the group. This is all data taken from the public displays so there should not be privacy issues about showing this much.

    For this picture I just used the first 37 markers from everyone's kit so it's a simpler picture, and STR markers can't show every ancestor of course, only where the mutations make it obvious. But it's a start at least.

    You'll note that you share a LOT of common mutations with kit B270113 as represented by Node #8 in the picture, which represents a long common line of descent that indicates you and he share a more recent common ancestor.

    The green text on the picture represents an automated age estimation that runs based on the mutation frequencies of the markers that have mutated below that line - in other words, estimating the age of the blue box from how long it would have to take for those markers to have mutated in that fashion. Now, if you look at the top-most box, that automated estimation guesses that the whole group has a common ancestor back around 200AD. That's WAY too old for a group that's clearly related within the time of surnames, and it's one reason why I think this group has STR markers that are mutating (generally, not just one or two of them) much more rapidly than the "statistical norms". Whether that's due to generally older fathers or whatever other reason I have no clue, but it does happen on occasion and I think it's happening here.

    That would also mean that the 1450AD age showing for your and B270113's common ancestor is probably too old also and why I guessed that could be as much as 200 years more recent.
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  10. #27
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    If you are north of Loch Ericht you would struggle to still be in Perthshire. I know this area very well (went through it on the train at the weekend incidentally through Blair Atholl and along the Spey). The River Ericht feeds down into Loch Rannoch and the highland Kennedys made their first landing in Perthshire at Camusericht after crossing over from Inverness-shire.

    You need to get on with some SNP testing, I'd be very interested to see what you come out as. There are one or two Kennedys in the A7/L193 part of the tree with connections in that area.
    Last edited by MacUalraig; 02-14-2019 at 10:02 AM.
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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacUalraig View Post
    If you are north of Loch Ericht you would struggle to still be in Perthshire. I know this area very well (went through it on the train at the weekend incidentally through Blair Atholl and along the Spey). The River Ericht feeds down into Loch Rannoch and the highland Kennedys made their first border crossing into Perthshire at Camusericht.

    You need to get on with some SNP testing, I'd be very interested to see what you come out as. There are one or two Kennedys in the A7/L193 part of the tree with connections in that area.
    Fair enough. Don't you find it odd though, that an individual from the North Coast of Northern Ireland would have a connection to the Northern Highlands region, rather then the Scottish Borders or Ayrshire/Glasgow etc?

    This is what I can't get my head round. What would've brought someone from Aviemore to Coleraine? (I can't think of a Landlord that brought people from that region to Northern Ireland, either. My local landlord was a McLelland from SW Scotland).

    I always thought my connection to Scotland was down round, near Stranraer! This is all very interesting though.

    http://ancestryireland.com/scotsinul...dertakers.html
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 02-14-2019 at 10:05 AM.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nqp15hhu View Post
    Fair enough. Don't you find it odd though, that an individual from the North Coast of Northern Ireland would have a connection to the Northern Highlands region, rather then the Scottish Borders or Ayrshire/Glasgow etc?

    This is what I can't get my head round. What would've brought someone from Aviemore to Coleraine? (I can't think of a Landlord that brought people from that region to Northern Ireland, either. My local landlord was a McLelland from SW Scotland).

    I always thought my connection to Scotland was down round, near Stranraer! This is all very interesting though.

    http://ancestryireland.com/scotsinul...dertakers.html
    I have been finding it odd for several years (wrt the Kennedys) since there are A7/A8 Kennedys in northern Ireland too. But until all of them here have been sequenced its hard to say how much of a missing link there might be ie how far back they link up.
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019, Dante Mar 2019, FGC-10X Linked Reads Apr 2019, Dante-Nanopore May 2019) - further WGS tests pending ;-)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
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  13. #30
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    Hi, so i'm looking at ordering the following SNP's: R1b-L513,R1b-S5982 and R1b-BY651. Do I need to order all of these tests or will one of them confirm all of them, for example, will R1b-BY651 confirm R1b-S5982 and L513?
    Last edited by Nqp15hhu; 03-22-2019 at 10:05 AM.

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