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Thread: U152+ L2+ PF7600+

  1. #1
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    U152+ L2+ PF7600+

    Dr. Francalacci has confirmed that E11688 from Bologna, Italy shares the following ten SNPs with his two Sardinian L2+ Z49- Z367- samples:

    FGC5336, FGC5338, FGC5344, FGC5345, FGC5351,
    FGC5354, FGC5356, FGC5367, FGC5373, PF7600

    Even though all three samples share those SNPs, the Sardinian samples form their own distinct subclade below E11688 and share the following 17 SNPs with each
    other, but not E11688:

    PF7599, PF7601, PF7603, PF7604, PF7605, 5858727 (T/C),
    7558252 (G/A), 14496614 (T/G), 23390331 (C/T), 18729652 (G/A),
    20824056 (T/A), 23021899 (G/A), 16370226 (G/A), 13500532 (T/G),
    6056374 (A/G), 8343363 (A/T), 13691975 (A/T)

    Aside from the reduced coverage of the Francalacci data, there were also many no-calls in his data due to the fact that his coverage was much lower (2x-4x versus 50x). So, it could still be that E11688 shares even more SNPs with the two Sardinian samples.

    Even though no L2+ Z49- Z367- that took the Geno 2 test (myself included) has tested positive for PF7600, I am now hopeful that some of the SNPs shared between E11688 and the two Sardinian samples may be above PF7600 and below L2.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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     Alessio B. Bedini (12-01-2013),  emmental (11-29-2013),  haleaton (11-30-2013),  palamede (11-29-2013)

  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Dr. Francalacci has confirmed that E11688 from Bologna, Italy shares the following ten SNPs with his two Sardinian L2+ Z49- Z367- samples:

    FGC5336, FGC5338, FGC5344, FGC5345, FGC5351,
    FGC5354, FGC5356, FGC5367, FGC5373, PF7600

    Even though all three samples share those SNPs, the Sardinian samples form their own distinct subclade below E11688 and share the following 17 SNPs with each
    other, but not E11688:

    PF7599, PF7601, PF7603, PF7604, PF7605, 5858727 (T/C),
    7558252 (G/A), 14496614 (T/G), 23390331 (C/T), 18729652 (G/A),
    20824056 (T/A), 23021899 (G/A), 16370226 (G/A), 13500532 (T/G),
    6056374 (A/G), 8343363 (A/T), 13691975 (A/T)

    Aside from the reduced coverage of the Francalacci data, there were also many no-calls in his data due to the fact that his coverage was much lower (2x-4x versus 50x). So, it could still be that E11688 shares even more SNPs with the two Sardinian samples.

    Even though no L2+ Z49- Z367- that took the Geno 2 test (myself included) has tested positive for PF7600, I am now hopeful that some of the SNPs shared between E11688 and the two Sardinian samples may be above PF7600 and below L2.
    All these shared SNPs should demonstrate a very recent common ancestor. How do you explain that samples from Bologna, Sicily, Sardinia have a recent common ancestor?
    Usually we link Sardinians to an ancient origin from Italy, at least many thousands of years ago, even though some of them could be also recent ones. From some last autosomal tests it would seem that samples from Iberia to Scandinavia are linked to the Sardinian ones, even though someone is trying to link them to the spread of agriculture from East Mediterranean Sea. We'll see.

    I think that many surprises will come from the paragroup L2*: see that of Bedini, who thinks to be of German origin, but he could be something else.

  4. #3
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    Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    All these shared SNPs should demonstrate a very recent common ancestor. How do you explain that samples from Bologna, Sicily, Sardinia have a recent common ancestor?
    Usually we link Sardinians to an ancient origin from Italy, at least many thousands of years ago, even though some of them could be also recent ones. From some last autosomal tests it would seem that samples from Iberia to Scandinavia are linked to the Sardinian ones, even though someone is trying to link them to the spread of agriculture from East Mediterranean Sea. We'll see.

    I think that many surprises will come from the paragroup L2*: see that of Bedini, who thinks to be of German origin, but he could be something else.

    Hello Rathna ,
    I know your expertise on the subject.
    Your answer is interesting and I would want to respond fully .
    Unfortunately at the moment I'm busy and I have little time to respond.
    Some brief remarks that I will integrate this weekend (when I have a little more time):
    1 ) I consider likely to share with 2 samples Sardinian 25% of my snp private (almost 13 of 53);
    2 ) The common ancestor lived no earlier than 4200 years ago (2200 before Christ ) ;
    3 ) The common ancestor to all R- L2 is lived not earlier than 5600 years ago (3600 before Christ ). In my opinion, even more ancient times;
    4 ) The link between me and the 2 samples Sardinian is simple and obvious: follow the people of the Beaker ;
    5 ) I have no preferences on the origin of my ancestors , I would just like to know the truth. A few years ago, as far as R- U152 , I said to hold in high regard the Ligurian and the culture of Polada : it seems to me that the facts are giving me reason ;
    6) Follow the spread of the "Vaso campaniforme" people on the coasts and in the islands of the sea meditteraneo and you will understand much better the origin of the Sea Peoples . Now everything seems much clearer. And I am convinced that you too do not agree with the oriental origin of the people of the sea .

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Acque agitate For This Useful Post:

     Rathna (11-30-2013)

  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Acque agitate View Post
    And I am convinced that you too do not agree with the oriental origin of the people of the sea .
    At least not SHKLSH, SHRDN and TWRSHSH. The best book I read on the argument (Woudhuizen, The Ethnicity of the Sea Peoples) seemed to think so.

  7. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acque agitate View Post
    Hello Rathna ,
    I know your expertise on the subject.
    Your answer is interesting and I would want to respond fully .
    Unfortunately at the moment I'm busy and I have little time to respond.
    Some brief remarks that I will integrate this weekend (when I have a little more time):
    1 ) I consider likely to share with 2 samples Sardinian 25% of my snp private (almost 13 of 53);
    2 ) The common ancestor lived no earlier than 4200 years ago (2200 before Christ ) ;
    3 ) The common ancestor to all R- L2 is lived not earlier than 5600 years ago (3600 before Christ ). In my opinion, even more ancient times;
    4 ) The link between me and the 2 samples Sardinian is simple and obvious: follow the people of the Beaker ;
    5 ) I have no preferences on the origin of my ancestors , I would just like to know the truth. A few years ago, as far as R- U152 , I said to hold in high regard the Ligurian and the culture of Polada : it seems to me that the facts are giving me reason ;
    6) Follow the spread of the "Vaso campaniforme" people on the coasts and in the islands of the sea meditteraneo and you will understand much better the origin of the Sea Peoples . Now everything seems much clearer. And I am convinced that you too do not agree with the oriental origin of the people of the sea .
    As we have spoken in the past, it does look like L2 in Italy had a big part as per the eastern influenced Bell Beaker province and the influences were critical in the formation of the Polada Culture. In Italy, the areas with Iberian/French parallels are more U152(xL2). The Iberian/U152(xL2) influenced areas also seems to have a loose correlation with later Q-Italic areas and the Eastern Bell Beaker/L2 influenced areas with Paleo-Umbrian speakers.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 11-30-2013 at 02:35 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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     Agamemnon (01-03-2015)

  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    As we have spoken in the past, it does look like L2 in Italy had a big part as per the eastern influenced Bell Beaker province and the influences were critical in the formation of the Polada Culture. In Italy, the areas with Iberian/French parallels are more U152(xL2). The Iberian/U152(xL2) influenced areas also seems to have a loose correlation with later Q-Italic areas and the Eastern Bell Beaker/L2 influenced areas with Paleo-Umbrian speakers.
    Actually, from a linguistic point of view, it seems that the other way around had happened: Lusitanian language, which maintains p- like Ligurian, seems having come from Italy and not the other way around. I have spoken about this a lot in the past, and I don't know any Zilhao who has written that agriculturalists migrated from Iberia to Italy 7500 ya nor recently, and nobody remembers the paper about the "Tudorella sulcata" I spoke a lot about too.

  10. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Actually, from a linguistic point of view, it seems that the other way around had happened: Lusitanian language, which maintains p- like Ligurian, seems having come from Italy and not the other way around. I have spoken about this a lot in the past, and I don't know any Zilhao who has written that agriculturalists migrated from Iberia to Italy 7500 ya nor recently, and nobody remembers the paper about the "Tudorella sulcata" I spoke a lot about too.
    I was talking about the retainment of of the *kʷ phoneme in Ligurian and Latin (as in Celto-Iberian languages) as opposed to the *p in Osco-Umbrian and Gaulish.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I was talking about the retainment of of the *kʷ phoneme in Ligurian and Latin (as in Celto-Iberian languages) as opposed to the *p in Osco-Umbrian and Gaulish.
    Of course these are two different and independent phenomena;
    1) the presence of p- in Ligurian and in Lusitanian demonstrates the link between these two languages and not with the Celt languages which lost p-.
    2) the mutation from the labiovelar *kw- to /p/ is a phenomen so diffused all over the world that may be happened independent in Osco-Umbrian and in some Celt languages and doesn't demonstrate probably any link, if we don't want to accept the theory which attributes it to the influence of Etruscan language, but happened where? For Osco-Umbrian we could think to Italy, but we should presuppose that also the Celt languages were nearby in ancient times or probably due to Etruscans when it was Northward as to the historic times.

  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    Of course these are two different and independent phenomena;
    1) the presence of p- in Ligurian and in Lusitanian demonstrates the link between these two languages and not with the Celt languages which lost p-.
    2) the mutation from the labiovelar *kw- to /p/ is a phenomen so diffused all over the world that may be happened independent in Osco-Umbrian and in some Celt languages and doesn't demonstrate probably any link, if we don't want to accept the theory which attributes it to the influence of Etruscan language, but happened where? For Osco-Umbrian we could think to Italy, but we should presuppose that also the Celt languages were nearby in ancient times or probably due to Etruscans when it was Northward as to the historic times.
    I've mentioned it before, but you would think if the Etruscans were responsible for the *kw- to /p/ shift, then surely the Latini would have adopted it as they were one of the most Etruscan-influenced Italic tribes. Since that was not the case, then I find the Etruscan link rather suspect.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I've mentioned it before, but you would think if the Etruscans were responsible for the *kw- to /p/ shift, then surely the Latini would have adopted it as they were one of the most Etruscan-influenced Italic tribes. Since that was not the case, then I find the Etruscan link rather suspect.
    1) this theory of the influence of Etruscan upon the mutation from *Kw to /p/ isn't mine and I quoted it only like an hypothesis
    2) I don't know if it is reliable or not (but I do know very well that to demonstrate similar hypotheses is very difficult)
    3) what you say about Latin, which should have taken the same mutation, isn't worth, because this isn't a rule, because there are infinite examples of the other way around and we don't know where Etruscans, Latins, Osco-Umbrians or Celts did live in previous times. This makes your hypothesis not demonstrable
    4) more interesting seemed to me (and I wrote about this in the past) the hypothesis that Etruscan *puplu- may derive from Pre-Indo-European *kwekwlo-, the word for "cycle", and this is one of the possible proof for me of the link of Etruscan and Tyrrhenian languages with Pre-Indo-European.

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