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Thread: R1b in North Africans

  1. #1
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    R1b in North Africans

    Since it has been postulated by some people that R1b-L11 could have entered Europe through North Africa circa 4800 ybp, it would be interesting to create a compilation as to the subclades of R1b found in North Africans.

    Here are a few studies, feel free to add more information:

    Onofri.et.al.2008.jpg

    Adams.et.al.2008-Figure-1(North Africa only).jpg

    Bekada.et.al.2013-Figure01.jpg

    Fadhlaoui-Zid.et.al.2013-Figure-S2.jpg

    Fregel.et.al.2009-Figure-2.jpg

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    There was definately a long thread about this not long back. The general conclusion was that the V88 zone down the Nile into Chad was very different from the Maghreb which looked like relatively late European contribution. However, I dont have time to go back over that stuff.

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    Here is my analysis of the studies:

    Onofri.et.al.2008.jpg

    ^The first study was done by Onofri.et.al.2008, and they found 1-R1b-M269 sample, however no downstream mutations were typed, so it could be anything. I wonder if the R1*(xR1a,R1b1) or R-M173 was in fact typed for R1b-P25, or if it is an R1b-V88?

    Adams.et.al.2008-Figure-1(North Africa only).jpg

    This is a modified figure-1 of the Adams.et.al.2008 study. Again only R1b-M269 was typed in this study, alongside with R1b-M65, R1b-M153 and R1b-SRY2627. So it seems R1b-M269 reaches percentages of 7% in both Algerians and Tunisians, but only 3% in Moroccans, interesting there is a small(1%) presence of R1b-SRY2627 in Tunisians

    Bekada.et.al.2013-Figure01.jpg

    This study done by Bekada.et.al.2013 shows that Algerians do show 2/102 or 1.96% of R1b-M269(xL23), and so do Tunisians at 1/120 or 0.83%. I wonder if these were typed by R1b-M269 marker, or could they be R1b-M73? In any case only the Algerians show another downstream clade which is R1b-M412, and 3 R1b-U152 and 1 R1b-M529. The Moroccans show only R1b-U152/R1b-M529 derived clades.

    Fadhlaoui-Zid.et.al.2013-Figure-S2.jpg

    This newly published study by Fadhlaoui-Zid.et.al.2013 team shows that the sample of 82 Moroccans show no R1b-M269 derived clade, on the other hand a sample of 215 Lybians show 5 R1b-M18(V88+) derived clades, and 1 R1a clade.

    Fregel.et.al.2009-Figure-2.jpg

    Finally there is the aDNA study done on an Aboriginal Canary Islanders sample from multiple islands, and they show 3/30 or 10% R1b1b2 or R1b-M269 clades. I wonder what the 1/30 or 3.33% P*(xR1) or the 3/30 or 10% K*(xP)(Perhaps it is Y-DNA T?) could be?

    Now what was interesting was that the Guanches/Canary Islandes Aborigines were supposed to represent a relative isolated Berber community, however a recent article(in spanish) shows a newly discovered Roman settlement in the Island of Fuerteventura, so it is very likely that the Romans did interact with the Canary Islanders. The presence of R1b-U152 in Moroccans, Algerians points to a Roman incursion more so that an Iberian proper, since that would yield more of the R1b-P312(xU152,L21) type.


    My opinion: All in all, with the number of studies analyzed above, it seem highly unlikely that North Africa was any point of entry for R1b-M269 into Europe. While the presence of 2 R1b-M269(xL23) clades in Algeria and 1 R1b-M269(xL23) clade in Tunisia would lend some support, however the complete absence of it in Moroccans, the lack of derived clades, i.e. R1b-L23(xL11), or R1b-L11(xM412), points to these two clades likely being the result of Balkanic incursions through the Roman colonization of the peninsula. In any case the complete absence of any R1b-M269+ derived clades in Lybians makes it very unlikely for a North African point of entry of R1b-M269 into Europe. Finally the presence of Romans in the Canary Islands might explain the presence of R1b-M269 clades in Aborigines, and also the presence of I-M170, perhaps some Phoenician incursion could have brought about the presence of J1-M267
    Last edited by jeanL; 11-29-2013 at 05:58 PM.

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    I agree that other than V88 there is no case for an out of Africa model for R1b. North Africa has such a complex colonial history too that there have been so many opportunities for European and west Asian DNA to come in.

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    Indigenous Guanches apparently had some R1b M269 - 10% (3 out of 30):

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...2148-9-181.pdf

    How old are these 3 samples with R1b M269, are they from BC times ???

    And how could it get there, also what subclades were those?

    Aboriginal remains were clearly pre-conquest for all the analyzed islands: Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP) [33]. Although the Fuerteventura and La Palma [59] materials were not directly C-14 dated, ceramic types co-excavated with the remains indicate that they were also prehispanic and not older than 1000 years BP.
    From which island(s) were those 3 aboriginal R1b samples ???
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-17-2015 at 08:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Indigenous Guanches apparently had some R1b M269 - 10% (3 out of 30):

    http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...2148-9-181.pdf

    How old are these 3 samples with R1b M269, are they from BC times ???

    And how could it get there, also what subclades were those?
    regarding the centuries old male remains, a few hundred years old. As far as to how the male signature got into the gene pool, I'd say by ship, perhaps in the triangular trade.
    The goal was to directly type North-African geographically structured Y-chromosome binary
    markers in samples from indigenous and 17th–18th century remains that were already successfully analyzed for
    mtDNA [24,25] and proven to be males by an amelogenin-based sexing test [33]
    dp
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    Nope. A few hundred years old.
    No, no - you are referring to "historical era" (post-conquest) samples from the 17th-18th centuries.

    In that group R1b was 43%, or 18 out of 42 samples (see Table I).

    However, there was also 10% (3 out of 30) of R1b in prehistoric aboriginal (pre-conquest) samples.

    Here is calibrated radiocarbon dating:

    Aboriginal remains were clearly pre-conquest for all the analyzed islands: Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP), Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP), Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP) and Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP) [33]. Although the Fuerteventura and La Palma [59] materials were not directly C-14 dated, ceramic types co-excavated with the remains indicate that they were also prehispanic and not older than 1000 years BP.
    But they don't specify which samples were R1b - from which island(s), and how old were those R1b-s.

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    Aboriginal haplogroups (samples dated to 2270 - 690 years ago):

    E1b1b1b* M81 ---- 8 ---- 26,67%
    E1b1b1a* M78 ---- 7 ---- 23,33%
    J1* M267 -------- 5 ---- 16,67%
    R1b1b2 M269 ----- 3 ---- 10,00%
    K* M9 ----------- 3 ---- 10,00%
    I* M170 --------- 2 ---- 6,67%
    E1a* M33 -------- 1 ---- 3,33%
    P* M45 ---------- 1 ---- 3,33%

    This P* M45 is probably also R1b, so we have in total 4 samples.

    Now I'm wondering if R1b samples are closer to 2270 years old, or closer to 690 years old.

    No dating for each sample separately is given, just for the whole set.

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    Those dates for R1b are all Iron Age dates, btw. Nothing hugely shocking about them.

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    No but those were isolated island populations, so it's quite surprising.

    And there are various interesting theories about Guanche origins and contacts with outsiders.

    If these R1b-s are closer to 2270 years old then they could be brought in by... whom ???

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