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Thread: R1b in North Africans

  1. #11
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    Sorry. I just glossed through to the Methods section.
    dp
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No, no - you are referring to "historical era" (post-conquest) samples from the 17th-18th centuries.

    In that group R1b was 43%, or 18 out of 42 samples (see Table I).

    However, there was also 10% (3 out of 30) of R1b in prehistoric aboriginal (pre-conquest) samples.

    Here is calibrated radiocarbon dating:



    But they don't specify which samples were R1b - from which island(s), and how old were those R1b-s.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    . . .

    This P* M45 is probably also R1b, so we have in total 4 samples . . .
    No, you cannot say that. It could have just as well been R1a or Q.

    The dates aren't all that old. They're Iron Age, all within the time of the existence of the Roman Empire. If you were hoping to make M269 aboriginal in western Europe, this doesn't do it, and it's been tried before.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    No but those were isolated island populations, so it's quite surprising.

    And there are various interesting theories about Guanche origins and contacts with outsiders.

    If these R1b-s are closer to 2270 years old then they could be brought in by... whom ???
    Romans maybe. Greeks maybe. You're getting excited about Iron Age remains, which in this case isn't all that big a deal.

    And apparently they weren't all that isolated, given the number of y haplogroups represented in the so-called "aboriginal" category.
    Last edited by rms2; 08-17-2015 at 09:35 PM.

  4. #14
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    I was just making a map of ancient R1b and stumbled upon these Guanche samples, so I wonder how old they are. Because I'm not including Medieval samples in my map, only samples up to the Iron Age.

    Hence the question.

    And if they are 2270 years old then I think it's a bit too early for Roman incursions.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I was just making a map of ancient R1b and stumbled upon these Guanche samples, so I wonder how old they are. Because I'm not including Medieval samples in my map, only samples up to the Iron Age.

    Hence the question.

    And if they are 2270 years old then I think it's a bit too early for Roman incursions.
    No it isn't. That's roughly 270 BC.

    Any number of European peoples could have made it out to the Canaries by that time, and that's the outer limit of the time range.

  6. #16
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    And apparently they weren't all that isolated
    Maybe not, but they had primitive Stone Age technology in the 15th century AD, during the conquest. Is it possible that they had contacts with more advanced cultures (including intermarriage / gene flow) but still remained at the Stone Age? Maybe that's because there were no metal deposits there. But anyway this would suggest, that contacts were not frequent (otherwise they would simply import metals).

    That's roughly 270 BC.
    Yes, at that time Carthage still controlled southern coasts of Iberia and North Africa.

    So how could the Romans get to Canary Islands at that time? Rather impossible.

    Any number of European peoples could have made it out to the Canaries by that time
    Yes, they could be random castaways, for example. Who got lost and landed there. But 10% is quite a lot (though the sample size is small, only 30 people). BTW - Guanches are thought to be of ethnic Berber origin, but also other peoples are sometimes postulated as taking part in their ethnogenesis.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-17-2015 at 09:49 PM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    No, you cannot say that. It could have just as well been R1a or Q.

    The dates aren't all that old. They're Iron Age, all within the time of the existence of the Roman Empire. If you were hoping to make M269 aboriginal in western Europe, this doesn't do it, and it's been tried before.
    Realistically I think R-V88, or even R1b-L389 has an edge over either R1a or Q.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Maybe not, but they had primitive Stone Age technology in the 15th century AD, during the conquest. Is it possible that they had contacts with more advanced cultures (including intermarriage / gene flow) but still remained at the Stone Age? Maybe that's because there were no metal deposits there. But anyway this would suggest, that contacts were not frequent (otherwise they would simply import metals).



    Yes, at that time Carthage still controlled southern coasts of Iberia and North Africa.

    So how could Romans get to Canary Islands at that time? Rather impossible.
    You're flailing about now. Face it: Iron Age R1b in the Canaries is just not all that significant. You can plead for it to be, but it isn't.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Realistically I think R-V88, or even R1b-L389 has an edge over either R1a or Q.
    The point is, one cannot just assume an Iron Age P-M45 is R1b-M269 because it is convenient.

  10. #20
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    It's significant for my map. If it's just 690 years old then I'm not going to include it.

    If it's 2300 years old then I will include it.

    If nobody knows how old is it, then I will simply include it as "270 BC - 1325 AD".

    The point is, one cannot just assume an Iron Age P-M45 is R1b-M269 because it is convenient.
    Q or R1a that far to the south-west would be even more surprising than R1b.

    Especially if we already have 3 M269 samples from the same area, and no Q or R1a.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 08-17-2015 at 09:54 PM.

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