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Thread: Afontova R1a?

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    Afontova R1a?

    I have seen some rumours that the Afontova burial is some form of r1a. I only seen it suggested by a poster on Dienekes. If true, the date is not quite the shock some are making out. The Afontova burial is post-LGM c. 15000BC which would not be really mind blowing if it was R1a.

    What would be more surprising than the date is the fact that R1a was in Siberia at that date. A lot of folks have tended to think R1a was somehow related to the Upper Palaeolithic groups in European Russia or the Ukraine but I think there has always been indirect evidence that this was not the case.

    More interestingly, the technological group that Afantova man is linked to, the microblade late upper palaeolithic of Siberia is thought to have originated somewhere like Altai c. 25000BC and to have expanded north again from there. That actually would give R1a a cultural home in the LGM. As far as I understand the late/post LGM story that Afanatovo man's cultural package was part of was a recolonisation of south central and then even more challenging parts of Siberia, probably from a refuge in somewhere like Altai or further south-east. That would indicate that some of R1, at least R1a remained much further east through the LGM than is normally thought.

    This kind of scenario would also potentially allow us to trace the spread of R1a with the spread west of this kind of late upper palaeolithic siberian microblade technology. I will have a dig about. Also there is the interesting diffusion of pottery from very early origins in the far east too to consider although I need to refresh my memory on that.
    Last edited by alan; 11-30-2013 at 02:05 AM.

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    This discusses the spread of microblade technology into Russia, significantly later than in Siberia and the far east

    http://www.phil.uni-greifswald.de/fi...hilin_2010.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I have seen some rumours that the Afontova burial is some form of r1a. I only seen it suggested by a poster on Dienekes. If true, the date is not quite the shock some are making out. The Afontova burial is post-LGM c. 15000BC which would not be really mind blowing if it was R1a.

    What would be more surprising than the date is the fact that R1a was in Siberia at that date. A lot of folks have tended to think R1a was somehow related to the Upper Palaeolithic groups in European Russia or the Ukraine but I think there has always been indirect evidence that this was not the case.

    More interestingly, the technological group that Afantova man is linked to, the microblade late upper palaeolithic of Siberia is thought to have originated somewhere like Altai c. 25000BC and to have expanded north again from there. That actually would give R1a a cultural home in the LGM. As far as I understand the late/post LGM story that Afanatovo man's cultural package was part of was a recolonisation of south central and then even more challenging parts of Siberia, probably from a refuge in somewhere like Altai or further south-east. That would indicate that some of R1, at least R1a remained much further east through the LGM than is normally thought.

    This kind of scenario would also potentially allow us to trace the spread of R1a with the spread west of this kind of late upper palaeolithic siberian microblade technology. I will have a dig about. Also there is the interesting diffusion of pottery from very early origins in the far east too to consider although I need to refresh my memory on that.
    For the most part, those bloggers over at Dienekes' have no inside info whatsoever, and more often than not they are full of nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I have seen some rumours that the Afontova burial is some form of r1a. I only seen it suggested by a poster on Dienekes. If true, the date is not quite the shock some are making out. The Afontova burial is post-LGM c. 15000BC which would not be really mind blowing if it was R1a.

    What would be more surprising than the date is the fact that R1a was in Siberia at that date. A lot of folks have tended to think R1a was somehow related to the Upper Palaeolithic groups in European Russia or the Ukraine but I think there has always been indirect evidence that this was not the case.

    More interestingly, the technological group that Afantova man is linked to, the microblade late upper palaeolithic of Siberia is thought to have originated somewhere like Altai c. 25000BC and to have expanded north again from there. That actually would give R1a a cultural home in the LGM. As far as I understand the late/post LGM story that Afanatovo man's cultural package was part of was a recolonisation of south central and then even more challenging parts of Siberia, probably from a refuge in somewhere like Altai or further south-east. That would indicate that some of R1, at least R1a remained much further east through the LGM than is normally thought.

    This kind of scenario would also potentially allow us to trace the spread of R1a with the spread west of this kind of late upper palaeolithic siberian microblade technology. I will have a dig about. Also there is the interesting diffusion of pottery from very early origins in the far east too to consider although I need to refresh my memory on that.
    If true, YFull should release soon.
    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post2133208

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    Yeah I am suspicious. Its also on the Apricity. Not that I ever look at that site, it just came up when I googled this looking for some more info. It was a couple of days ago and I was wondering how I could have missed something big like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    For the most part, those bloggers over at Dienekes' have no inside info whatsoever, and more often than not they are full of nonsense.

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    It's true, the data from this sample are positive for SNPs from haplogroup Q and R1a-M417. But after M417 they're negative for all downstream markers. So the result looks like an R1a-M417*.

    However, if you look at the study, the authors say that this sample is a fairly poor one and also highly contaminated. So it could be another case of a bogus Y-DNA result, like the Neanderthal that came out R1a-Z280 not long ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's true, the data from this sample are positive for SNPs from haplogroup Q and R1a-M417. But after M417 they're negative for all downstream markers. So the result looks like an R1a-M417*.

    However, if you look at the study, the authors say that this sample is a fairly poor one and also highly contaminated. So it could be another case of a bogus Y-DNA result, like the Neanderthal that came out R1a-Z280 not long ago.
    Do we have any source on the M417 Gora II as well as the prior Z280?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    A lot of folks have tended to think R1a was somehow related to the Upper Palaeolithic groups in European Russia or the Ukraine but I think there has always been indirect evidence that this was not the case.
    More interestingly, the technological group that Afantova man is linked to, the microblade late upper palaeolithic of Siberia is thought to have originated somewhere like Altai c. 25000BC and to have expanded north again from there.
    It seems to me as if Afontova Gora represents the eastern end of a continuum that stretched from Europe to pre-East Asian Siberia, just before the entry of East Asians into the Siberian taiga from near the Altai. So if Afonotova Gora was indeed M417*, then Eastern Europeans at the time were also M417*. Not long after that, most of Siberia shifted to N and C.



    Unless of course you're also claiming that the bulk of European ancestry, in other words the main West Eurasian ancestral clade, expanded from the Altai post-Ice Age towards the west.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Do we have any source on the M417 Gora II as well as the prior Z280?
    Semargl from Molgen.

    I agree with you about the possibility of sample contamination.
    He has several positive SNPs Q. The remaining SNPs of haplogroup R1a.
    Sample quality is very poor.
    I did not want to publish data on this sample, but some people could not resist)
    Y.bam weighs 2mb

    But it's worth noting that the positive SNPs below M417 not.
    Unlike Neanderthal man Z280+

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    I understand M417 is usually dated to about 5000BC so it does look like contamination given the burial is from somewhere around 15000BC. I do hope this doesnt reanimate the zhiv rate zombies by claiming it isnt contamination.

    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's true, the data from this sample are positive for SNPs from haplogroup Q and R1a-M417. But after M417 they're negative for all downstream markers. So the result looks like an R1a-M417*.

    However, if you look at the study, the authors say that this sample is a fairly poor one and also highly contaminated. So it could be another case of a bogus Y-DNA result, like the Neanderthal that came out R1a-Z280 not long ago.

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