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Thread: Afontova R1a?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    To me, both the Balangodese and Kostenki are migrants from somewhere else, and while Africa is possible, I have yet to see any proof.
    I am not suggesting that the Kostenki 14 man arrived in Europe direct from Africa. No early sapiens arrived in Europe direct from Africa. The Mediterranean was an impassible barrier at the time. The only debate has been over which routes were taken via Asia. If you want to argue with Out-of-Africa, there is a thread specially for it. Let's not hijack yet another thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I am not suggesting that the Kostenki 14 man arrived in Europe direct from Africa. No early sapiens arrived in Europe direct from Africa. The Mediterranean was an impassible barrier at the time. The only debate has been over which routes were taken via Asia. If you want to argue with Out-of-Africa, there is a thread specially for it. Let's not hijack yet another thread.
    With respect to the discussion about Afontova and/or Mal'ta, I think Kostenki 14 as well as where Kostenki 14 came from is pertinent.
    I did not bring up Africa as I had no reason to do so.

  3. #63
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    He is interesting but he comes from a different culture and phase, I believe from the pre-Gravettian Aurignoid layers of that site. So, its not clear if he is linked to the same human waves that produced the Mal'ta and Afontova guys. From an archaeological point of view they are three quite different cultures.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    With respect to the discussion about Afontova and/or Mal'ta, I think Kostenki 14 as well as where Kostenki 14 came from is pertinent.
    I did not bring up Africa as I had no reason to do so.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post

    Judging by where Afontova-Gora is on the autosomal PCA, Sungir should be in about the same place.
    Generalissimo,

    What is your opinion on Genitiker's autosomal report on Mal'ta and Afontova Gora? Are you planning to run the data and report your findings?

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Generalissimo,

    What is your opinion on Genitiker's autosomal report on Mal'ta and Afontova Gora? Are you planning to run the data and report your findings?

    Thanks.
    Maybe, but it's not easy to get the data. It needs a lot of bandwidth and some processing, which is not straightforward. So we'll see.

    If Genetiker actually got the processing of the data right, then another major problem remains: fitting the ancient genomes to ancestral clusters created with populations that came into being more or less 17-24,000 years after these genomes existed. So it's like turning everything on its head, and then trying to make sense of it.

    Perhaps it's better to wait until a good number of ancient high-quality genomes become available online, already processed by the top minds in the field of ancient genomics? Then we can get the ancient genomes to create ancient clusters, and fit modern samples to these clusters.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 12-03-2013 at 03:00 AM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Generalissimo For This Useful Post:

     Jean M (12-03-2013),  newtoboard (12-03-2013),  parasar (12-03-2013)

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Not sure. A great deal of population movements in prehistory are due to climate/ecological changes (especially how wet/dry) so I would imagine the answer is there although I have never read up on this in terms of that geographical area.
    ...
    Perhaps the sinking of Sundaland in the 65000-50000ybp time frame forced the move. We have YTT, then an 1000year ice age, and then flooding. During this period modern humans may have survived in southern most parts of Africa and east of Toba, Flores, Australia, etc.

    When the island was colonised by the Dutch in the 16th century they repeatedly heard stories of Little People having been seen in the jungle from the indigenous Homo sapiens Ngadha and Manggarai tribes, but none of these rumours appear to have been proven.
    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/homo_floresiensis.php

    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    He is interesting but he comes from a different culture and phase, I believe from the pre-Gravettian Aurignoid layers of that site. So, its not clear if he is linked to the same human waves that produced the Mal'ta and Afontova guys. From an archaeological point of view they are three quite different cultures.
    I think Kostenki 14 is one the early ones to enter Eastern Europe, Y-P or early R is my speculation. The transition would be from Kostenki 14->Mal'ta MA1 ->Afotova Gora AG2 with progression from the Australoid type to West Eurasian Caucasian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    ...

    I had guessed to myself that Afontova would be haplogroup Q. There doesnt seem to be any R in Altai other than much later R1a that probably came from the west.

    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Sorry I am lost. They found indications of both R1a and Q? I have got to be honest that Q is what I thought the Afantova person would be based on a complex of considerations. However, they were clearly concerned about contamination or they would have provided a conclusion on the Afontova Y DNA.
    AF2 None Q1a1 Q1a1a Q1a1b F1215 R http://www.yfull.com/full-genomes/

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    However his date is not very early. I believe about 30000BC. There was human settlement in that zone long before that.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Perhaps the sinking of Sundaland in the 65000-50000ybp time frame forced the move. We have YTT, then an 1000year ice age, and then flooding. During this period modern humans may have survived in southern most parts of Africa and east of Toba, Flores, Australia, etc.


    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/homo_floresiensis.php



    I think Kostenki 14 is one the early ones to enter Eastern Europe, Y-P or early R is my speculation. The transition would be from Kostenki 14->Mal'ta MA1 ->Afotova Gora AG2 with progression from the Australoid type to West Eurasian Caucasian.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    However his date is not very early. I believe about 30000BC. There was human settlement in that zone long before that.
    37985+-665

  11. #70
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    AG2/YFull

    R1a1 Level
    M609/"M609 CTS836 R1a1a1 equivalent or upstream"
    Y1429 ?
    CTS11148 /"CTS11148 R1a1a1 equivalent or upstream"
    PAGE7/"PAGE7 R1a1a1"
    M752/"M752 PF7527 F2948 R1a1a1 equivalent or upstream"
    M761/"M761 F3159 R1a1a1 equivalent or upstream"
    M810/"M810 F3644 R1a1a1 equivalent or upstream"

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