Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 46

Thread: I1-L205

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    830
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Ethnicity
    Tuscan Italian
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+Z36+
    mtDNA (M)
    U6a7a

    United Kingdom Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?
    Very possibly, though the Longobards were probably more numerous.

    Careful research is needed.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Cascio For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (07-12-2019)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    13
    Sex
    Location
    New England, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L205.1
    mtDNA (M)
    U4c1

    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?
    Since I have the I-205.1 and am from Italy (well, my father was)...would my haplogroup raw data help with any answers? Not sure if it will help, but here's my ancestry composition - everything including Southern European and below is from my paternal (I-L205.1) side and all above is from my very WASP mother. After I figure out this Longobard thing, I need to move on to the Levantine and Anatolian that show up - which I think is from my Calabrian grandmother and wouldn't have anything to do with my potential Longobard dna (hoping). DNA.JPG

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Stolfi For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (07-12-2019)

  5. #13
    Registered Users
    Posts
    877
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    Norse-Gael/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U106-DF98
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Sweden England Northern Ireland
    Speaking of Longobards etc... remember we have genomes/samples from Longobard burial sites from Szolad and Collegno - I know at Szolad one of the major lineages was I2a... I don't know what the long hand is for I-205.1... but remember we have that older thread on those sites...

    For Szolad:
    SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 Central Europe, Scandinavia
    SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 Central Europe
    SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 Germanic region
    SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
    SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
    SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region

    At Collegno there was less haplogroup I guys:
    CL63 I1a3 Z79 Central Eastern Europe

    And of course I have some info on the U106ers from both sites since I keep track of the aDNA U106+ samples for Dr. Iain McDonald and crew:

    Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



    SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2 >Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

    (Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)

    SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

    SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 (female) is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 (female) is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 (female) 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons for CL84 (I have yet to find a list of the exact grave goods of each sample from Collegno)? Some weapons in grave goods of kin group members. Note that because of their kingroup status with CL84 - I consider male samples of kindred CL 1 - CL 92, CL93, CL97, CL145 and CL146 very likely to also be U106+.

    I know the group that did the analysis on those two sites have many more samples from that time period and Longobard areas... so looking forward to more work by them in the future - led by Professor Geary... https://genetichistory.ias.edu/conte...and-procedures

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Bollox79; 07-12-2019 at 10:11 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Adam Weaver born 1785 in Pennsylvania (most likely Rhineland German) - Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004/FGC14818/FGC14823-FGC14816/FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers!

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastađir in Eyjafjarđarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (07-12-2019)

  7. #14
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,669
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Could Normans not also be a source for I-L205.1 in Italy?
    I assume so, as well as the inevitable possible crusader etc, so here the likelihood is down to the comparative size of the population movements. Plus the surname is evidence, if it is considered Lombard. What would you recommend as a next course of action?
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Stolfi (07-12-2019)

  9. #15
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,669
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by Stolfi View Post
    Since I have the I-205.1 and am from Italy (well, my father was)...would my haplogroup raw data help with any answers? Not sure if it will help, but here's my ancestry composition - everything including Southern European and below is from my paternal (I-L205.1) side and all above is from my very WASP mother. After I figure out this Longobard thing, I need to move on to the Levantine and Anatolian that show up - which I think is from my Calabrian grandmother and wouldn't have anything to do with my potential Longobard dna (hoping). DNA.JPG
    Unfortunately your Y ancestor won't be reflected in your current ancestry composition, which is only relevant for recent centuries. You could order a cheap panel test from Yseq or a full Big Y or similar followed by an upload to YFull. Your terminal SNP will then show you the location of matches and give more clues on origin.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (07-12-2019),  Stolfi (07-12-2019)

  11. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    13
    Sex
    Location
    New England, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L205.1
    mtDNA (M)
    U4c1

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    Unfortunately your Y ancestor won't be reflected in your current ancestry composition, which is only relevant for recent centuries. You could order a cheap panel test from Yseq or a full Big Y or similar followed by an upload to YFull. Your terminal SNP will then show you the location of matches and give more clues on origin.
    Thanks, I will order a Y-DNA kit from FTDNA. I had found the information below on my surname which is what brought me on this journey of trying to find out if I have Lombard ancestry. When I read about my haplogroup there was mention of a King Aistulf and since it sounded very much similar to my surname, I began to put two and two together.

    Surname.JPG

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Stolfi For This Useful Post:

     JonikW (07-12-2019)

  13. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,536
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by Bollox79 View Post
    Speaking of Longobards etc... remember we have genomes/samples from Longobard burial sites from Szolad and Collegno - I know at Szolad one of the major lineages was I2a... I don't know what the long hand is for I-205.1... but remember we have that older thread on those sites...

    For Szolad:
    SZ45 I1a1b1 L22 Central Europe, Scandinavia
    SZ12 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ14 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ24 I2a2a1 CTS9183 Balkans, Central Europe
    SZ43 I2a2a1a2a1a S391 Central Europe
    SZ3 I2a2a1b2a2 S390 Germanic region
    SZ13 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
    SZ22 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region
    SZ7 I2a2a1b2a2a2 ZS20 Germanic region

    At Collegno there was less haplogroup I guys:
    CL63 I1a3 Z79 Central Eastern Europe

    And of course I have some info on the U106ers from both sites since I keep track of the aDNA U106+ samples for Dr. Iain McDonald and crew:

    Dating of Szolad samples: middle third of the sixth century (550s - 570s AD? Occupied by a mobile group for 20-30 years) based on a combination of stylistic elements of the grave goods and radiocarbon analysis. Dating of Collegno samples: between 580 and 630 CE based on artefact typology.



    SZ 2: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z30/S271>Z2 >Z7>Z8>ZZ58 by A. Williamson (Wayne K also ran SZ 2 in HG38 assemblies for this sample and found it Z8+, but not ZZ58+): male aged 2-3 years of age. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; periosteal lesions maxilla. Autosomal: 90%+ CEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 4: R-M269>U106/S21>Z18>Z372/S375 by A. Williamson: male aged 30-40 years of age. Skull shape Dolichocrany. Height: 166.0 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance and rectangular enclosures surrounding graves 4 and 5 are also worth mentioning and suggest that there was some sort of a relationship between the deceased. While only a few parallels are known in the West [18], such features may point to Roman traditions [19]; given that the site was situated within the former Roman Empire, this would be an element specific to Szólád. Stress markers etc: Cribra orbitalia; enamel hypoplasia; sharp-force trauma right os parietale; periosteal lesions right maxilla; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; caries; periapical lesions. Autosomal: 90% GEU+GBR 10% FIN

    SZ 11: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263>Z301/S499>L48>Z9>Z347>Z328> FGC10367>Z319>S1734>~2222759 2-T-A>FGC13489>hg38:20038474-A-C by A. Williamson: male aged 35-45 years of age. Skull shape: Hyperdolichocrany. Height: 175.5 ± 3.5 cm. Grave goods: Lance. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Cribra orbitalia; healed right hip and right humerus fracture; osteoarthritis; spondylosis; periodontitis. Autosomal: 100% CEU+GBR

    (Note from A. Williamson: SZ4 may actually be negative for Z373/S495 but because it's within DYZ19 I wasn't 100% convinced. For SZ11, I had to create a new block downstream of FGC13489 as he shares a variant with BigY kit Cemin (N23903).)

    SZ 20: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263 (per Anthro user Waldemar analysis - plus I took a look at the SNPs - shows positive for U106+ and S263+ and Z381+). Male aged 25-35 years of age. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield, Arrows. Stress markers and selection of relevant pathologies: Enamel hypoplasia; double-rooted lower canine; periodontitis. Autosomal: Not as Northern European as the other U106+ "Longobards," but clusters with SE England and Hessen, Germany - some Northern Italian/more Southern admixture perhaps? May also be a case of low number of SNPs for autosomal DNA.

    SZ 23: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 6-12 months. Stress makers etc: Periosteal lesions left and right maxillae. No grave goods? Autosomal: 25-30% TSI (Tuscan), rest is 60% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    SZ 16: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: male aged 45+ years of age. Stress makers etc: Caries. Grave goods: Spatha, Lance, Shield. Autosomal: about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN

    CL (Collegno) 84: R-M269>U106/S21>Z381/S263: Kin to 1st gen group of Northern European men who are R1b - L151+: Autosomal: Almost 100% CEU+GBR - small amount of FIN - kindred group autosomal: CL 83 (female) is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 97 is 100% CEU+GBR, CL 87 (female) is 95% CEU+GBR and about 5% TSI (Tuscan) from 50-70% Northern European mother? CL 92 and 93 about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN, CL 145, 146 90+% CEU+GBR + small amount of FIN, CL 151 (female) 100% CEU+GBR. For comparison with Bavarian samples ALH 1 is about 90% CEU+GBR and 10% FIN. Grave goods: Rich grave goods/chamber grave no weapons for CL84 (I have yet to find a list of the exact grave goods of each sample from Collegno)? Some weapons in grave goods of kin group members. Note that because of their kingroup status with CL84 - I consider male samples of kindred CL 1 - CL 92, CL93, CL97, CL145 and CL146 very likely to also be U106+.

    I know the group that did the analysis on those two sites have many more samples from that time period and Longobard areas... so looking forward to more work by them in the future - led by Professor Geary... https://genetichistory.ias.edu/conte...and-procedures

    Cheers!
    According to Deadly77's reads, SZ45 is I-Y14999 which is under L22, and CL63 is I-Y2245 which is under Z63.

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (07-12-2019),  Cascio (07-13-2019),  deadly77 (07-12-2019),  JonikW (07-12-2019),  Stolfi (07-12-2019)

  15. #18
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,536
    Sex
    Location
    Canada
    Nationality
    Canadian

    Canada Netherlands United Kingdom Cornwall Ireland France
    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Very possibly, though the Longobards were probably more numerous.

    Careful research is needed.
    Agreed, however the Longobards brought more than just Longobards (Goths, Gepids, etc) with them as they moved into Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JonikW View Post
    I assume so, as well as the inevitable possible crusader etc, so here the likelihood is down to the comparative size of the population movements. Plus the surname is evidence, if it is considered Lombard. What would you recommend as a next course of action?
    I agree that Longobard could be more likely given the circumstances, however I've always been a bit wary of surnames in determining origins this far back as surnames can change so quickly or the result of undocumented adoption, NPEs etc

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to spruithean For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (07-12-2019),  deadly77 (07-12-2019),  Stolfi (07-12-2019)

  17. #19
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    731
    Sex
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Ethnicity
    European
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-L338
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c1

    United Kingdom Northumberland European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    According to Deadly77's reads, SZ45 is I-Y14999 which is under L22, and CL63 is I-Y2245 which is under Z63.
    Correct - although credit to Sassoneg for getting CL63 to I-Y2245. I got fed up with ploughing through the no calls in the poor coverage of that sample and settled for calling CL63 at I-Z63. Sassoneg as a I-Z63 guy was willing to go the extra mile in CL63's BAM file and got to the right place.
    SZ45 is almost certainly one step below at I-FGC21819, but the call for that defining SNP is slightly ambiguous - 5 derived reads and 2 ancestral reads. So both YFull and I went a bit conservative and stuck SZ45 at I-Y14999 for now. Vladimir from YFull told me that SZ45 shares a reliable SNP with one of the customer samples on branch I-FGC21819 which would definitely put him on that branch.

  18. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to deadly77 For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (07-12-2019),  JonikW (07-12-2019),  spruithean (07-12-2019)

  19. #20
    Moderator
    Posts
    1,669
    Sex
    Location
    Kent
    Ethnicity
    North Sea/Irish Sea
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    I1 Z140+ A21912+
    mtDNA (M)
    V
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b L21+ L371+
    mtDNA (P)
    J1c2l

    Wales England Cornwall Scotland Ireland Normandie
    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    Agreed, however the Longobards brought more than just Longobards (Goths, Gepids, etc) with them as they moved into Italy.



    I agree that Longobard could be more likely given the circumstances, however I've always been a bit wary of surnames in determining origins this far back as surnames can change so quickly or the result of undocumented adoption, NPEs etc
    I agree you have to look at the combined evidence, so location and name together are about the best we could hope for when they tally with a haplogroup. I'd say Lombard should be the working hypothesis for Stolfi until any other evidence arrives.
    Living DNA's former Cautious mode:
    Wales-related ancestry: 86.8%
    Cornwall: 8%
    North England-related ancestry: 5.2%
    Y line: Peak District, England. Big Y match: Scania, Sweden; TMRCA 1,100 ybp (YFull);
    mtDNA: traces to Glamorgan, Wales
    Mother's Y: traces to Llanvair Discoed, Wales

  20. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to JonikW For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (07-12-2019),  Stolfi (07-12-2019)

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •