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Thread: Iraq/Mesopotamia is the likely birthplace of majority of J2

  1. #21
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    Iran_Chl is just a composite of other Near Eastern groups* anyway. And a varying composite; Seh_Gabi_Chl in Iran looks about 60:40 Iran_N:Western farmer, Haji_Firuz_Chl about 50:50. It looks a bit like the Iranian Early Neolithic was more replaced by the Western Neolithic, oddly enough, particularly Anatolian, than vice versa, without as much change in Anatolia or the Levant. You have to go all the way to Turan to get as much persistence of the Iran_N as Anatolia_N has in contemporary Anatolia, or Levant_N in the Levant.

    But back to theory; not sure how adna would test it. What's the testable prediction that would be true under this theory that's wouldn't happen under random deme to deme migration that has not much to do with emergence urbanisation?

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Iran_Chl is just a composite of other Near Eastern groups* anyway. And a varying composite; Seh_Gabi_Chl in Iran looks about 60:40 Iran_N:Western farmer, Haji_Firuz_Chl about 50:50. It looks a bit like the Iranian Early Neolithic was more replaced by the Western Neolithic, oddly enough, particularly Anatolian, than vice versa, without as much change in Anatolia or the Levant. You have to go all the way to Turan to get as much persistence of the Iran_N as Anatolia_N has in contemporary Anatolia, or Levant_N in the Levant.

    But back to theory; not sure how adna would test it. What's the testable prediction that would be true under this theory that's wouldn't happen under random deme to deme migration that has not much to do with emergence urbanisation?
    Well, so is Levant_ChL, and ultimately Levant_N for that matter. There's no denying that Iran_ChL has a substantial amount of Levant_N-like ancestry, a component which probably was even more prominent among Mesopotamians during the Pottery Neolithic (in other words, it's quite likely E-Z830 will show up in some of the remains).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Anatole Klyosov
    He is a noisy pseudo-scientist who wrote a number of garbage books with let's call it "alternative prehistory". Unfortunately he got some public attention.
    Usually people notice his crusade against Out Of Africa theory. He says that most scientists "understand that OOA theory is nonsense" but would never say that in public because they fear to be considered racists if they oppose OOA theory.

    Such a hype lover could not miss Zionism, of course.

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  7. #24
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    Sure they are, and Iran_N probably too.

    Only point I'm making is that there isn't really a stable clear Iran_Chl component that is moving around and going anywhere that is clearly distinguishable from the general coalescence of the ME genepool (with a apparently so far a slight bias to Western farmer groups, Levant and/or Anatolian, no so clear, Iran_NW surviving best in South Asia and maybe in Turan).

    So it seems hard to test the idea IronHorse presents to me, particularly with the limited sample size and timescale involved, whether there is a distinctive ancestry related to Mesopotamia that only shows up with urbanization (which is exactly what it seems like you'd need to test IronHorse's conjecture).

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  9. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    He is a noisy pseudo-scientist who wrote a number of garbage books with let's call it "alternative prehistory". Unfortunately he got some public attention.
    Usually people notice his crusade against Out Of Africa theory. He says that most scientists "understand that OOA theory is nonsense" but would never say that in public because they fear to be considered racists if they oppose OOA theory.

    Such a hype lover could not miss Zionism, of course.
    I like to think that we've known that for quite some time. Much of what he says in the interview I posted is very damning and basically destroys his credibility in this field (not that he has much left quite frankly).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eterne View Post
    Sure they are, and Iran_N probably too.

    Only point I'm making is that there isn't really a stable clear Iran_Chl component that is moving around and going anywhere that is clearly distinguishable from the general coalescence of the ME genepool (with a apparently so far a slight bias to Western farmer groups, Levant and/or Anatolian, no so clear, Iran_NW surviving best in South Asia and maybe in Turan).

    So it seems hard to test the idea IronHorse presents to me, particularly with the limited sample size and timescale involved, whether there is a distinctive ancestry related to Mesopotamia that only shows up with urbanization (which is exactly what it seems like you'd need to test IronHorse's conjecture).
    I agree. But in case you're wondering, I do not support IronHorse's theory, which is basically a rehashed version of the Dynastic race theory on a larger scale. While there is no doubt that the earliest urban culture in the region was Ubaid (urbanisation emerged during the Ubaid 3 period), the emergence of urbanisation in Egypt definitely was a local phenomenon despite the fact that it started almost a thousand years later with the Naqada II culture.

    Mesopotamian influence does pervade the building techniques, the cylinder seals (which were imported in the Naqada culture) and even the art of protodynastic Egypt, that being said none of this could not be explained by trade, elite emulation and other similar processes, there is no need for a Mesopotamian population acting as a civilisational thread. You yourself made a fair point regarding the Levant, but one must remember that the civilisations of the Early Bronze Age were based primarily on irrigation, the Levant did not have such a system of irrigation and had to wait until the 2nd millennium BCE to experience an important phase of urban growth (there are a few exceptions to this). One could actually argue that, in the Levant, the earliest phase of highly organised and structured culture was associated with Mesopotamian migrants during the Pottery Neolithic, many archeologists such as Ussishkin support such a scenario so it isn't all black and white. Ubaid is a possible contender here. So while Mesopotamian admixture (in the form of a component similar to Iran_ChL) is almost a given in the Levant by the Chalcolithic, it's far less likely the protodynastic Egyptians had such ancestry. And then there is the Kura-Araxes culture, which spread southwards into the Levant during the EB III period bringing a distinct form of pottery known as Khirbet Kerak Ware (KKW), this too was obviously tied to an intrusive population (though in my opinion many overestimate its demographic impact).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-10-2019 at 03:31 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    Iraq was where the capital of the Persians was (primary Achaemenids and Sassanids but also Parthians). Hence it was a many century long center of Iranic elites.

    My conservative approach goes with the oldest aDNA samples and these are in North Iran and the Caucasus, two neighboring regions.

    So my prediction is lower intensity of J2 in ancient Mesopotamia and a direct correlation with CHG/Iran auDNA admixture.
    I expect heavy presence of J1 and behind it more ancient Semitic origin E.
    T could be a wild card for significant presence, especially in older layers and L could be quite close behind T.
    After seeing presence of H in neolithic Spain I think its presence in the oldest layers could be notable.

    Therefore I would guess at this point a origin of J2 centered around NW Iran and a major expansion after that of J1.
    The reports, probably false ones of IJ found in modern samples in Iran also hints to a diversity epicenter there.
    We have no ancient dna in Mesopotamia so its impossible to know if ancient Mesopotamia had a lower intensity of J2. J1-Z2331 which is the Semitic speaking branch or the likely ancestor that was part of the ethnogensis of Proto Semitic speakers had likely left the area during the Neolithic, so this branch being the majority of J1 in modern Iraq likely started a back migration to the area from the Akkadian period onwards, though benefit of the doubt I see it entirely possible that upstreams until L136 branch could have been part of ancient Mesopotamia. When it comes to E it will likely be the same scenario as J1-Z2331 in Iraq with it primarily coming from Akkadian period onwards, it would be cool to see if ancient Mesopotamia did infact have some E, but its numbers will likely be small (who knows E-V22 might surprise everyone again).

    T is honestly a very poor choice, because we have loads of ancient T samples and its clear that T is associated with Anatolian Neolithic Farmers, as its been found in Europe, the Levant and North Africa, unless we get a specific branch that comes directly from Mesopotamia, with the exception of T2 the one found in Bronze Age Jordan, though majority of T in West Asia is the P77 branch which has a Bronze Age origin and likely was somewhere close to the Proto Semitic homeland that spread with subsequent waves. In terms of L, yes here I totally agree with you L was very likely part of ancient Mesopotamia.

    Yes J2 was likely born in Iran (imo 95% chance) with the Zarzian Culture but it had branches that had already spread to Mesopotamia pre Neolithic, its unimaginable to see that vast majority of upstreams seem to be found in modern Iraq, were not talking about well defined clades but thousands of year old singletons that would suggest that Mesopotamia was an area crucial to the development of some J2 branches. Like I wrote in my original post that Iran is equally part of the equation with specific branches originating from Iran like L25 and M241 which are huge branches of J2, also we have L581 too that was found in Paleolithic Iran too, so its very likely this branch came from the area as well. I think ancient Mesopotamia (Sumerians/Uruk/Ubaid) will be very similar to Iran Neo/Iran Chalcolithic groups because they will ultimately be related groups kind of like WHG are related in Europe.
    Last edited by Principe; 03-10-2019 at 06:05 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  13. #27
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    CHG puts the vector to way up north relative to Mesopotamia and the next best paleolithic vector is to the north east (Iran Hotu). So without actual Mesopotamian samples it feels too north shifted for now.

    Certain is that there is no auDNA ghost population in the game, basically limiting the mystery to following auDNA-YDNA correlations:

    Levant_N/Natufian with E
    ASI/Andamanese/Indus Vally with H and less likely L
    Iran_N/CHG with J1 primary, J2b later and J2a after them
    Anatolia_N with primarily G and T

    This is the pool from which we can deduce and I would sort it in this way:

    Sorted from oldest
    1: ASI (a little wild speculation based to its unknown ancient presence in Iran and the Elamites, plus H's now almost extinct findings in Neolithic Spain)
    2: Natufian
    3: Anatolia_N
    4: Iran/CHG

    In this scenario, J2a would be a late arrival, J2b earlier and J1 earliest of J.

    Resulting in this timeline:
    C --> H --> L --> R2 --> E --> T --> G --> J1 --> J2b --> J2a --> R1b --> R1a --> Q

    For this to work I expect similarly grave genetic replacements as seen in neighboring Anatolia. I expect now almost extinct Y Haplogroups that played a major role back then with speculative scenarios such as Sumerians being a G, T, L, H mix or early Akkadians an exclusive E and T mix.

    The Paleolithic vectors of J2 findings are too north shifted for my taste to put the origin of J2 into Mesopotamia. However, as said, since Iranics are a main carrier of J2, their heavy presence in Mesopotamia, starting at least with the Mitanni and being most intense (empires capital) for over 1000 years via Persians and Parthians would be a good explanation for the diversity.

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patarames View Post
    CHG puts the vector to way up north relative to Mesopotamia and the next best paleolithic vector is to the north east (Iran Hotu). So without actual Mesopotamian samples it feels too north shifted for now.

    Certain is that there is no auDNA ghost population in the game, basically limiting the mystery to following auDNA-YDNA correlations:

    Levant_N/Natufian with E
    ASI/Andamanese/Indus Vally with H and less likely L
    Iran_N/CHG with J1 primary, J2b later and J2a after them
    Anatolia_N with primarily G and T

    This is the pool from which we can deduce and I would sort it in this way:

    Sorted from oldest
    1: ASI (a little wild speculation based to its unknown ancient presence in Iran and the Elamites, plus H's now almost extinct findings in Neolithic Spain)
    2: Natufian
    3: Anatolia_N
    4: Iran/CHG

    In this scenario, J2a would be a late arrival, J2b earlier and J1 earliest of J.

    Resulting in this timeline:
    C --> H --> L --> R2 --> E --> T --> G --> J1 --> J2b --> J2a --> R1b --> R1a --> Q

    For this to work I expect similarly grave genetic replacements as seen in neighboring Anatolia. I expect now almost extinct Y Haplogroups that played a major role back then with speculative scenarios such as Sumerians being a G, T, L, H mix or early Akkadians an exclusive E and T mix.

    The Paleolithic vectors of J2 findings are too north shifted for my taste to put the origin of J2 into Mesopotamia. However, as said, since Iranics are a main carrier of J2, their heavy presence in Mesopotamia, starting at least with the Mitanni and being most intense (empires capital) for over 1000 years via Persians and Parthians would be a good explanation for the diversity.
    Look I disagree with your timeline and the last 2 paragraphs for the most part, though like the work you put into it. Think of it as branches instead of Haplogroups, because certain J2a branches have an almost certain origin in Mesopotamia especially J2a-M47 which has strong ties to Iraq and M47 in Iraq is very diverse which would suggest a local origin also TMRCA matches Sumerians. There really isn’t strong evidence of J2b in Iraq earlier than J2a, as at least 2 branches have been identified via adna such as M205 being associated with Semitic speakers and L283 having a migration route of Iran>Caucasus>Steppe (IE branch), and L283 being under M241, the other large branches of M241 are heavily concentrated in South Asia and sporadically found throughout Iran and West Asia suggesting that an Iranian origin for M241 as L283 went West and Z2423 spreading East. Even L25 was very likely born in Iran based on what adna is telling us so far with Z387 going West, PF5488 likely staying around the area and Z7700 moving East and into Central Asia remember that FGC9961 (downstream of Z7700) has been found in Eastern Scythians and pre IE BMAC, FGC9961 in Europe might entirely came from the migration period of Scythian and Alanic migrations. The questionable branch is PF5160 which so far only YSC253 has showed up in adna and albeit in Neolithic Tajikistan suggesting a Neolithic movement so its possible that PF5160 branches followed a similar pattern as L25 and M241 and PF5174 branch which is heavy in Iraq could be via Iranians in line with what your saying. But the same can not be said for PF5119 branches which seem to have a Mesopotamian origin that spread early on and are rarely found in Central Asia and South Asia making an Iranian origin less likely, and we know ancient Mesopotamians had colonies in the Caucasus, Levant and Eastern Turkey which could actually nicely explain where the several branches moved to, the best example would be Y11200 (downstream of Z7671>CTS900) in Chalcolithic Caucasus.
    Last edited by Principe; 03-10-2019 at 11:55 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    remember that FGC9961 (downstream of Z7700) has been found in Eastern Scythians and pre IE BMAC, FGC9961 in Europe might entirely came from the migration period of Scythian and Alanic migrations.
    Well the expertise of a mind incorporated, deep understanding of each J2 branch is your special ability not mine.
    Therefore it is a valid approach to deduce from modern branch spread to most of the conclusions you made.

    If those Iraqi branches have not spread to the areas under Iranic/Persian control such as e.g central Asia, we have to assume a non-Iranic origin, in line with a older non-Iranic Mesopotamian origin (special founder and selection effects excluded).

    This approach is a more valid one than to get to that conclusion based on high J2 branch diversity in Mesopotamia, a center of Iranic presence.

    It is likely and realistic that J2 was at least present early on given the close geographical proximity of the supposed Zagros/Alborz birthplace and Mesopotamia. J2's comparatively late but very successful expansion requires extra care.

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  19. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Civilization started in Mesopotamia, the civilizations of Egypt, Indus Valley, Anatolia, Aegean and the Levant, emerged not due cultural transmission of the behavioral package that we associate with BA civilization or coincidance, it was because civilized Mesopotamians migrated to these places ... there I said it.
    To be honest, the basic pillars of civilization were built upon agriculture, which was transitioned from the Fertile Crescent (and hence, Mesopotamia since it was the center). These migrants then migrated to Egypt (E-M123 and T1a and G2a being dominant migrants), Anatolia (Northern Anatolia? where J1/J2 and G2a are abundant) and the Indus Valley (L1a is from Anatolia, and was the haplogroup of the Harappans and Elamites).

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