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Thread: Iraq/Mesopotamia is the likely birthplace of majority of J2

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    They're definitely from the Gulf and the KSA, I've had the opportunity to check this many times. Like hartaisarlag said, they're heavily overrepresented, there are several Arabic fora dealing with genetics and the focus is almost entirely on Y-DNA and its relationship to one's nasb. This has clearly become an obsession which embodies very well the tribal aspects of Arab society, there are even several accounts on Twitter specifically dedicated to a single lineage or haplogroup (take this account for example).

    J1 is arguably the most concerned by this sampling bias, since this lineage is by far the most common in the Gulf. I've watched this for many years, while new samples are always a good thing, oversampling from a single area poses a serious problem. To give you an example, even ZS241 (my lineage) which is extremely rare outside Jewish populations has several basal cases from Kuwait and the KSA, and only one from Egypt (which is much more informative than the previous ones for reasons I won't get into).

    So as far as J2 is of concern, one must keep this problem in mind. On the other hand, I think an origin of J2 in Mesopotamia is entirely plausible and even quite parsimonious.
    Absolutely, I think a good portion of J2 will ultimately be from Mesopotamia, in the case of branches M47 and PF5174 these are strong contenders to have been Sumerian lineages based on TMRCA’s, and we know based on ancient dna that L25 came from Iran and likely so did M241, so we’ll have to see, we’re lacking too much data from the Fertile Crescent, and with the current drought of adna it would be awesome if we can get a paper from the area.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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    The phylogenetic structure of J1 is quite different from J2. They were good neighbours but not from exactly the same spot. I think J2 is openly associated with the Neolithic movements and could be from Northern Mesopotamia but only the J1 expansion of derived clades were more associated with "dry" pastoralism jumping occupied J2 lands towards the South/SW, but we can observe ancient original J1 hotspots in places like Eastern Caucasus, J1 was found in Satsurblia and close to Finland with basal clades still there, so J1 craddle and the location of the structure of basal J1 clades should be around the Western Caspian Sea/Eastern Caucasus region or around the modern borders of Azerbaijan/Armenia/Iran/Turkey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    The phylogenetic structure of J1 is quite different from J2. They were good neighbours but not from exactly the same spot. I think J2 is openly associated with the Neolithic movements and could be from Northern Mesopotamia but only the J1 expansion of derived clades were more associated with "dry" pastoralism jumping occupied J2 lands towards the South/SW, but we can observe ancient original J1 hotspots in places like Eastern Caucasus, J1 was found in Satsurblia and close to Finland with basal clades still there, so J1 craddle and the location of the structure of basal J1 clades should be around the Western Caspian Sea/Eastern Caucasus region or around the modern borders of Azerbaijan/Armenia/Iran/Turkey.
    Totally agree J1 and J2 have entirely different phylogenetic trees, but I don't think they were too far off from each other until at least the Neolithic, and we also have J2b-M205 migrating with J1-Z2331 in ancient DNA, I even think the more Kura Araxes samples we get we'll see that branches of J2a accompanied J1-Z1842 as well, as for the J1 found in Satsurblia it is a very old branch and separated quite earlier, there is the J2a equivalent of J2a-Z6048 which has a different history than most other J2a branches and it branched off quite early as well.
    Last edited by Principe; 03-04-2019 at 03:02 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13>A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    Agamemnon, what you said is so true.

    There is also the issue of people not joining projects because they're not J1, they hide their results because they think they're not descended from the tribal patriarch described in Arabic genealogy books, that patriarch has to be J1 for some reason.

    Any result other than J1 is considered not originally Arabian (E1b1b is associated with the pseudo-scientific concept of archaic Arabs mentioned in the Quran and other myths), and so your ancestors are either slaves, bastards, or pretenders.

    My case, I know of two other I2c2 in my tribe, both chose to keep their results private, one of them was quite racist, he said at least Europe (I remember him saying Vikings) is better than Africa (we're not E1b1b)

    this is a project: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...es/dna-results

    can you spot the only I in this ocean of J ? that's me, notice how many are they, I know one of the Admins, he told me that many of them are tribal Arabs, but when you go to the A-B-C-R-Q-L-j2 section, most don't post their tribal name, first name, a grandfather maybe, but not the tribe, I know that the Q guy is from my tribe, the same as the Jewish branch.
    That's something very few people realise in the world of personal genomics. While on discussion boards such as this one, knowing whose proto-daddy spoke PIE or which prehistoric culture is associated with a specific strand of ancient ancestry generates some of the most bitter debates, on most Arabic-language discussion boards (and even on Twitter) knowing which prophet carried which Y-DNA lineage is all the craze. This generates a lot of drama, so for instance a few months ago Russia Today released on interview with Anatole Klyosov entitled Genetic genealogy shatters Zionism! What has the study of Jewish and Arab DNA uncovered?



    Unlike what most might expect here, it isn't the political claim which has been discussed at length (outside the comments on Youtube that is). Rather, it is Klyosov's constant references to Abraham that prompted a lot of debate, with several people using clips of this interview to prove their point.

    The tribal behaviour fits into this context, one of rigid religious interpretation of the genetic data which allows zero nuance. This leaves no room for a discussion of the data that does not fit into the religious narrative, often coupled with the traditional historiography of Arab origins which views Yemen as the source of all the Arabs (that's the minimalist view, some go even further and claim that all Semitic groups or even the Ancient Egyptians were originally Yemenite tribes). So should a Mesopotamian origin, even as a secondary homeland, prove to be true for J1 or J2 you can expect a lot of people to use this as further proof of the religious narrative.

    This is but a symptom which reflects deeper issues in Arab society. Unfortunately, this effectively means we are missing a lot of Arabia's genetic diversity, your own lineage is an extremely good example of that (the same used to be true of R1a in the Arabian peninsula until R1a-L657 was found amongst the custodians of the Ka'ba).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-05-2019 at 11:04 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    proto-daddy
    God, can't believe I haven't seen this before. Genius.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    can you spot the only I in this ocean of J ? that's me, notice how many are they, I know one of the Admins, he told me that many of them are tribal Arabs, but when you go to the A-B-C-R-Q-L-j2 section, most don't post their tribal name, first name, a grandfather maybe, but not the tribe, I know that the Q guy is from my tribe, the same as the Jewish branch.
    Exactly ..
    Last edited by Moe12; 03-09-2019 at 12:33 PM.

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    Iraq was where the capital of the Persians was (primary Achaemenids and Sassanids but also Parthians). Hence it was a many century long center of Iranic elites.

    My conservative approach goes with the oldest aDNA samples and these are in North Iran and the Caucasus, two neighboring regions.

    So my prediction is lower intensity of J2 in ancient Mesopotamia and a direct correlation with CHG/Iran auDNA admixture.
    I expect heavy presence of J1 and behind it more ancient Semitic origin E.
    T could be a wild card for significant presence, especially in older layers and L could be quite close behind T.
    After seeing presence of H in neolithic Spain I think its presence in the oldest layers could be notable.

    Therefore I would guess at this point a origin of J2 centered around NW Iran and a major expansion after that of J1.
    The reports, probably false ones of IJ found in modern samples in Iran also hints to a diversity epicenter there.

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    I have a theory, a blasphemous one that no son of man is willing to accept, but I, who carries the blood of the gods, can think of such events.

    I believe that the Urban revolution that began in Mesopotamia in the Uruk period and spread afterward in all directions, spread because people who had the mentality to build and organize cities migrated with it.

    https://www.amazon.com/History-Ancie.../dp/1405149116

    The specialization of productive labor led to the need for an authority to
    organize the exchange of goods, as individual families were no longer self-sufficient. This authority required an ideological foundation shared by the
    participants in the system to make it acceptable for them to contribute part
    of their production in return for something else in the future. In Uruk-period
    Mesopotamia, that ideology was provided by religion: goods were received by
    the god of the city and redistributed to the people. The temple, the house of
    the god, was the central institution that made the system work. Continuing
    a trend that had started in the early Ubaid period, temples in the Late Uruk
    period became the most monumental buildings in the settlements, constructed at great expense of labor as physical indicators of their prominent role within society.

    The temple's role in the collection and redistribution of goods created the
    need for an entirely new class of specialist - the administrator. The economy
    became so complex that accounting mechanisms were necessary to record goods
    coming into and going out of the central organization. This required the skills
    of people capable of working with the tools and techniques of a bureaucracy.
    Standard measures for amounts of dry and liquid goods, for land, for labor, and for time were in place, and writing, the technology to record them for future consultation, had originated. In considering changes in the society, it is important to realize that all this bureaucratic activity was the domain of a specialized group of people.

    The specialization of labor that characterized the establishment of urban life in southern Mesopotamia caused a fundamental restructuring of society. The process of social differentiation culminated in the existence of a stratified society in which professional occupation primarily determined one's rank in the hierarchy. The large majority of people still were farmers, fishermen, herders, and so on, living in communities with little social differentiation beyond that
    within the individual family. These communities were probably in a tributary relationship with the city and provided part of their income to it, but they remained otherwise socially free and owned the land they worked. Many of the city-residents (we are unable to determine what percentage, however) were part of the temple organization, whose members were wholly dependent on the former for their survival. They were organized along strictly hierarchical lines. Most indicative of the urban hierarchy is a text called the "Standard List of Professions" (see document 2.1). It appeared first at the end of the Late Uruk period, thus amongst the first texts written, and was copied faithfully for some 1500 years, the later versions being clearer to us than the earlier ones. The list provides in several columns the titles of officials and names of
    professions, ordered in a hierarchy starting with the highest rank. While the first entry is not entirely comprehensible to us, later Mesopotamians equated it with the Akkadian word for king, which was probably an anachronistic way of indicating that the highest official of the land was meant. The following entries in the "Standard list of professions" contain a number with the element NAM,, which we think represents "leader," and with the sign GAL, which means "great." The titles include such terms as "leader of the city," or "of the
    plow," and "great one of the cattle pen," or "of the lambs." The list contains terms for priests, gardeners, cooks, smiths, jewelers, potters, and others. While not fully understood, it is clear that it provides an inventory of specialist professions within the cities.

    At the top of the Uruk society, then, stood a man whose powers derived
    from his role in the temple. Hence, scholars often call him a "priest-king." At the bottom of the social ladder of temple dependents were the people involved in production, both agricultural and otherwise. How extensive this group was remains impossible to determine, but through a projection from third-millennium conditions, we assume that the temple had a staff that could take care of all its own needs. In the third millennium, dependent laborers were given rations, fixed amounts of barley, oil, and cloth, as a reward for their services. It is likely that such a system already existed in the Late Uruk period.

    The Uruk IV tablets contain accounts of grain distributed to numbers of
    workmen, which seem to be precursors of later ration lists. The issuing of rations to numerous people may explain the abundance of the beveled-rim bowl in the archaeological record. These bowls, in a limited number of sizes, possibly functioned as containers for measuring out barley rations. The resemblance of the early cuneiform sign for ration (NINDA) and the beveled-rim bowl supports this suggestion. If correct, the first appearance of the beveled-rim bowl in the mid-fourth millennium would attest to a system of grain distribution
    already at that time. A fundamental opposition existed in this early period between the temple dependents, who were provided for yet unfree, and the inhabitants of the countryside, free but uninsured against disasters such as bad harvests. The temple, located in the city, was a focal point for all, however, and through its collection of tribute drew the entire region together. A state, albeit small, had developed by the late fourth millennium where the city held organizational controls.
    the cities of Mesopotamia, were the earliest in the world, their division of labor, heirarchized society, writing, and the State. all urban society afterwards follow this model, and in the same time, Iran_ChL like admixture, we know this ancestry reached Turan, Anatolia, the Levant and the Aegean at least since the Early Bronze Age, only Egypt remains, future Ancient DNA research will test if an old blasphemous theory is correct or not.

    I know that a certain god of linguistics will have objections, but open mindedness is a virtue, why would the cities of Chalcholithic Mesopotamia need to be monolingual ? we know that Sumerian wasn't the only language there and many place names were not Sumerian.
    Corruption of the soul is a fate that befalls the weak

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronHorse View Post
    I have a theory, a blasphemous one that no son of man is willing to accept, but I, who carries the blood of the gods, can think of such events.

    I believe that the Urban revolution that began in Mesopotamia in the Uruk period and spread afterward in all directions, spread because people who had the mentality to build and organize cities migrated with it.

    https://www.amazon.com/History-Ancie.../dp/1405149116



    the cities of Mesopotamia, were the earliest in the world, their division of labor, heirarchized society, writing, and the State. all urban society afterwards follow this model, and in the same time, Iran_ChL like admixture, we know this ancestry reached Turan, Anatolia, the Levant and the Aegean at least since the Early Bronze Age, only Egypt remains, future Ancient DNA research will test if an old blasphemous theory is correct or not.

    I know that a certain god of linguistics will have objections, but open mindedness is a virtue, why would the cities of Chalcholithic Mesopotamia need to be monolingual ? we know that Sumerian wasn't the only language there and many place names were not Sumerian.
    Civilization started in Mesopotamia, the civilizations of Egypt, Indus Valley, Anatolia, Aegean and the Levant, emerged not due cultural transmission of the behavioral package that we associate with BA civilization or coincidance, it was because civilized Mesopotamians migrated to these places ... there I said it.
    Last edited by IronHorse; 03-09-2019 at 07:03 PM.
    Corruption of the soul is a fate that befalls the weak

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    So Egyptians got civilized and the Levant was left poor and uncivilized how come?

    When Egyptians got unifed and got access to the Mediterranean they started trading heavily with Cretan Minoans, BA Anatolian and Mesopotamians folks, this is how civilization ideas were traded too.

    Now, you need more than that to create a civilization. Otherwise Levant, Anatolia, Armenia would have produced a civilization as big as Ancient Egypt which is not the case.

    Maybe being at the right place? Maybe Greece, Egypt, Italy were at the right at the good times with enough ressources and the magic got it . It's not like every single regions trading with Mesopotamia became a huge civilization. In fact Greece, Italy and Egypt are not geographically the closest to Mesopotamia. I definitely agree with the idea of trading with Mesopotamia was very important.

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