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Thread: My Big-Y700 results from FTDNA, Northern Greek.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If Z2103 is most probably from the steppe, then they must have entered Armenia quite early on for there to be as many old clades of Z2103 showing up as there currently are, correct? Z2013 is not negligible in Iranians.
    I think a later migration by a group consisting of different branches of Z2103 could show the same pattern. On the other hand the recent South Asian paper showed that 3 Afanasievo samples were Z2108, the 'least Armenian' branch of Z2103. Z2108 also has some more European brances, so maybe it's less Armenian because the other Z2103 branches left early.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Another area into which an Indo-European language seems to have expanded in the third millennium BC was southern Caucasia. Archaeological evidence is clear that after 2500 BC nomadic pastoralism became prevalent here.

    Eventually most of the Kura-Araxes settlements were abandoned, and those that remained through the Trialeti culture were relatively small. If PIE did not evolve in the Kura-Araxes culture, and we have good reason to think that it did not, it may have been with the arrival of nomadism in the third quarter of the third millennium BC that an Indo-European language first came to south Caucasia. Where the pastoralists may have come from, or whether most of them were simply Kura-Araxes villagers who had become pastoralists, is unclear.

    Those pastoralists who did not have local roots may have come from north of the Caucasus, but it is also possible that they came from the southeast. Some specialists have argued, that is, that pastoralists from northwestern Iran began filtering into southern Caucasia in the third millennium BC. We know only that in the middle of the second millennium BC Indo-Iranian was spoken in or near to southern Caucasia"

    - Militarism and the Indo-Europeanizing of Europe, Pg 21, Robert Drews.


    Whether Z2103 is from the north (steppe) or southeast, I think it must be part of this group that invaded South Caucausia in 2500 BC. This is because of the Paleo-Balkan connection that you reffered to, and that Greeks seem to have come to the Aegean from that South Caucasia region around 2000-1600 BC.
    I have read a lot of contradictory theories on where the Greeks (and Paleo Balkans) might have come from. The south Caucasian region doesn't seem unreasonable, but there are other candidates. Many specialists believe that the Indo-Iranian languages originated in the so called Sintashta culture. If Greek and/or Armenian is indeed closer to the Indo-Iranian languages than to other IE-languages their ancestors must have lived in the neighbourhood of the Sintashta, that why if I recall correctly amongst others David Anthony has pointed to the Catacomb culture as the homeland of Greeks and Armenians.

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     Johane Derite (09-12-2019)

  3. #42
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    Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
    BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

    If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.
    Last edited by rafc; 09-13-2019 at 08:17 AM.

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     Kelmendasi (09-13-2019)

  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like.
    You omit
    - E-BY6550, a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
    - E-PF6784, a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.

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  7. #44
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    Albanian
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    Albania Kosovo Montenegro
    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
    BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

    If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.
    I personally believe that the CTS1273 in the Balkans still is mainly from the IE expansions into the region from the Carpathians or western steppe area. Though the origin of CTS1273 itself may be in the Balkans, but I do know others have argued other areas like Central Europe. There is also a potential CTS1273* from Albania (Diber-Librazhd area to be more precise, the sample is incidentally my maternal uncle), he is negative for S3003 and Z16663 however BY3880 wasn't included in the SNP pack and so we don't know if he is negative for it. There is also a E-BY3880* sample from Jegunovce, Macedonia, iirc.

    I doubt that the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan groups picked up CTS1273 in the Caucasus, there doesn't seem to be any E-V13 clades in the Balkans which share ancient matches with the Caucasus or the neighbouring areas. Also I don't think the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan nomads ever went around the Caucasus. Based on all evidence so far I think that a Caucasian expansion is unlikely. I'm pretty sure J-L283 experts just believe that L283 expanded from the steppe-Caucasus area with IE groups.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-13-2019 at 03:51 PM.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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     Pribislav (09-14-2019)

  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    You omit
    - E-BY6550, a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
    - E-PF6784, a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.
    It was not my goal to describe the whole Yfull tree for V13. BY6550 is very rare. PF6784 is the branch containing Pontic Greeks, amongst others.

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