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Thread: My Big-Y700 results from FTDNA, Northern Greek.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If Z2103 is most probably from the steppe, then they must have entered Armenia quite early on for there to be as many old clades of Z2103 showing up as there currently are, correct? Z2013 is not negligible in Iranians.
    I think a later migration by a group consisting of different branches of Z2103 could show the same pattern. On the other hand the recent South Asian paper showed that 3 Afanasievo samples were Z2108, the 'least Armenian' branch of Z2103. Z2108 also has some more European brances, so maybe it's less Armenian because the other Z2103 branches left early.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    "Another area into which an Indo-European language seems to have expanded in the third millennium BC was southern Caucasia. Archaeological evidence is clear that after 2500 BC nomadic pastoralism became prevalent here.

    Eventually most of the Kura-Araxes settlements were abandoned, and those that remained through the Trialeti culture were relatively small. If PIE did not evolve in the Kura-Araxes culture, and we have good reason to think that it did not, it may have been with the arrival of nomadism in the third quarter of the third millennium BC that an Indo-European language first came to south Caucasia. Where the pastoralists may have come from, or whether most of them were simply Kura-Araxes villagers who had become pastoralists, is unclear.

    Those pastoralists who did not have local roots may have come from north of the Caucasus, but it is also possible that they came from the southeast. Some specialists have argued, that is, that pastoralists from northwestern Iran began filtering into southern Caucasia in the third millennium BC. We know only that in the middle of the second millennium BC Indo-Iranian was spoken in or near to southern Caucasia"

    - Militarism and the Indo-Europeanizing of Europe, Pg 21, Robert Drews.


    Whether Z2103 is from the north (steppe) or southeast, I think it must be part of this group that invaded South Caucausia in 2500 BC. This is because of the Paleo-Balkan connection that you reffered to, and that Greeks seem to have come to the Aegean from that South Caucasia region around 2000-1600 BC.
    I have read a lot of contradictory theories on where the Greeks (and Paleo Balkans) might have come from. The south Caucasian region doesn't seem unreasonable, but there are other candidates. Many specialists believe that the Indo-Iranian languages originated in the so called Sintashta culture. If Greek and/or Armenian is indeed closer to the Indo-Iranian languages than to other IE-languages their ancestors must have lived in the neighbourhood of the Sintashta, that why if I recall correctly amongst others David Anthony has pointed to the Catacomb culture as the homeland of Greeks and Armenians.

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  3. #42
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    Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
    BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

    If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.
    Last edited by rafc; 09-13-2019 at 08:17 AM.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like.
    You omit
    - E-BY6550, a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
    - E-PF6784, a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.

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  7. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    Maybe an additional point: for V13, the most numerous clade in the Balkans (and Greece, depending on the definition of clade) some people have argued that it was picked up by IE guys and brought along to Euope. Although those theories mainly concern Western European IE groups. Others believe V13 is native to the Balkans since its ancestor L618 was found there in the Cardial ware culture. Most of V13 belongs to CTS5856 wich obviously had a great expansion in a few generations. Directly beneath CTS5856 is BY3880, which contains the large majority of CTS5856. CTS5856 has two other subbranches besides BY3880: S3003 and Z1663. The former is only 2000 years old and appears only in Northeastern Europe. The latter is more Greek/mediterrenean than Balkan like. It's very present in Pontic Greeks who lived not far from the Caucasus, but common sense would dictate they migrated there from the coast of Asia minor in the Iron age. Apart from these 3 clades there is one lone CTS5856* sample, this guy comes from Ossetia of all places. He is part of a cluster that is spread in the two main Ossetian language groups, suggesting a long presence in the region. This seems to leave open a possibility that V13 was picked up near the Caucasud by Greek/Paleo-Balkan nomads.
    BTW, Yfull also lists a sample from the Behar study as CTS5856*, this sample was described as a Turkish Jew, I have not verified that this sample is really negative for the three subgroups of CTS5856 but I assume Yfull know what they are doing.

    If CTS5856 was really picked up near the Caucasus, this would imply the same for it's cousin, PH1246, which is also present in the Balkans and Greece. Based on it's current results I would not say this is very likely, but not impossible either. I think the L283 specialist also believe it was picked up somewhere near the Caucasus.
    I personally believe that the CTS1273 in the Balkans still is mainly from the IE expansions into the region from the Carpathians or western steppe area. Though the origin of CTS1273 itself may be in the Balkans, but I do know others have argued other areas like Central Europe. There is also a potential CTS1273* from Albania (Diber-Librazhd area to be more precise, the sample is incidentally my maternal uncle), he is negative for S3003 and Z16663 however BY3880 wasn't included in the SNP pack and so we don't know if he is negative for it. There is also a E-BY3880* sample from Jegunovce, Macedonia, iirc.

    I doubt that the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan groups picked up CTS1273 in the Caucasus, there doesn't seem to be any E-V13 clades in the Balkans which share ancient matches with the Caucasus or the neighbouring areas. Also I don't think the Greeks or Paleo-Balkan nomads ever went around the Caucasus. Based on all evidence so far I think that a Caucasian expansion is unlikely. I'm pretty sure J-L283 experts just believe that L283 expanded from the steppe-Caucasus area with IE groups.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-13-2019 at 03:51 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241>BY32817

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    You omit
    - E-BY6550, a direct subclade of E-V13 found in men of German and Scottish ancestry, with a TMRCA of 3000 years
    - E-PF6784, a direct subclade of E-Z16663 found in Poland, Slovakia, and Sardinia as well as Turkey, with a TMRCA of 3300 years.
    It was not my goal to describe the whole Yfull tree for V13. BY6550 is very rare. PF6784 is the branch containing Pontic Greeks, amongst others.

  10. #46
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    Greece Greek Macedonia Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    As a follow up to my OP, I've recently discovered some ecclesiastical historical accounts from the Patriarchate that pinpoint the place of origin of my paternal village's folks (the people of Ortakoy) in Epirus and Western Macedonia, around Prespes Lake, and refer to them as Arvanite builders ('Αρβανιται και Αρβανιτοχώρι'). My dad also gets Albanian matches on 23andme around Proger and Devoll who recognize one of his family's last names.

    I don't know how accurate all this is since it's an old historical event (16th-17th century), but there's that. My clade might be of Arvanite origin.
    Last edited by dosas; 11-18-2019 at 06:20 AM.
    53.52% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 46.48% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.018

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  12. #47
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    Greece Greek Macedonia Empire of Trebizond Byzantine Empire
    As a final (hopefully?) follow-up to my thread, I finally managed to track down the original last name of my grandfather (before it was changed to the current one) and I found it to be exclusively Karagouni in its origin (a Hellenophone sub-branch of Aromanians) centred around Thessaly/Western Macedonia, which also coincides with one of the origin stories of Ortakoy/Ivaylovgrad in Thrace.

    It's been an exhausting one year of research, but I think I can finally put a lid on this one as I am as certain as I will ever be, I think.

    So, R-Y155609 is a clade of Aromanian origin, of the Karagouni variety.
    Last edited by dosas; 06-04-2020 at 07:45 PM.
    53.52% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 46.48% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.018

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  14. #48
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    There is one Bulgarian with paternal origin from Macedonia, who is strongly predicted L584+, he is proven by now Z2103+, CTS7822-. However, he has no close STR matches, it is possible L584 had old presence in the Western Balkans, however could not be proven if there since the Bronze or brought later by the Byzantines. We should mention the exiled Paulicians and even the Samuil dynasty is thought to be of Armenian origin.

  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by eastara View Post
    There is one Bulgarian with paternal origin from Macedonia, who is strongly predicted L584+, he is proven by now Z2103+, CTS7822-. However, he has no close STR matches, it is possible L584 had old presence in the Western Balkans, however could not be proven if there since the Bronze or brought later by the Byzantines. We should mention the exiled Paulicians and even the Samuil dynasty is thought to be of Armenian origin.
    I am doing my homework on the Karagouni people of Thessaly, and the opinions about their origins seem conflicted in the local academia. The most concrete narratives seem to be the following:

    a) They are a local Thessalian population of ancient Greek origins. The proponents of this theory focus on their Hellenophony and on the fact that the rest of the Aromanians refer to them as 'Greci', among other ethnography factors.

    b) They are a sub-branch of Thessalian/Macedonian Aromanians (like I mentioned in the previous post), who, having no animals or farms of their own, were moved around by the Ottomans for their manual labour.

    c) They are Hellenophone Arvanites/Arvanitovlachs from Epirus who were moved to Thessaly in the 14th century to work the land.

    d) They are related to the Sarakatsani-Karachani, as their non-nomadic/urban-farmer manual labourer cousins. Maybe this is another connection to Bulgaria (my father matches Sarakatsani on 23ame with Eastern Romelian origins)?

    One thing that historians and ethnographers seem to agree on is that their Hellenophony is very old, going back at least to the 14th century, and that in Thessaly, they are included in the celebrations/festivals of the wider Vlach/Aromanian community.

    I haven't found anything in relation to Armenians.

    Hope it helps.
    53.52% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 46.48% Greek_Trabzon @ 0.018

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  17. #50
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    Yes, it is possible your ancestor was Aromanian, just mentioning the way L584 could have come to the Balkans. Most Balkanians can't get back in their pedigree more than 200-300 years with certainty, the rest are speculations. It is historically documented, though, that around 200000 Paulicians from Eastern Anatolia and Syria were exiled to Thrace in 9th century. Thrace at the time included not only the current region, but also Macedonia, possibly Epyrus. They even formed something like independent state around Plovdiv. The Samuil's revolt in 10th century used them as allies, at least Samuil's wife was coming from a Paulician family. The ferocity of the conflict between Basil II and Samuil could be on a personal level as both were Armenian. Basil's father placed Samuil's as a comit in Macedonia, and his son betrayed them.
    Most Paulicians were Hellenises and Slavilised, however there were a few Paulician villages in Thrace, Bulgaria, which continued to speak Armenian till 19th c. These Armenians were different to those living in all bigger cites along the Ottoman empire, who formed tight communities, which never mixed even with the other Christians till modern times. Most of the remaining Paulicians in Bulgaria were allowed by the Ottomans to convert to Catholicism, as they did not wish to go back to their old enemy, the Greek Orthodox church.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulicianism

    The power of the Paulicians was broken. Meanwhile, other Paulicians, sectarians but not rebels, lived in communities throughout the Byzantine Empire. Constantine V had already transferred large numbers of them to Thrace.[1] According to Theophanes, part of the Paulicians of Armenia were moved to Thrace, in 747, to strengthen the Bulgarian frontier with a reliable population.[21] By 872, the emperor Basil I conquered their strongholds in Asia Minor (including Tephrike) and killed their leader, and the survivors fled elsewhere in the Empire.[22] One group went to the East to the Byzantine-Arab border - in Armenia, where in the 10th century the Tondrakian sect emerged.[9]
    Others were transferred to the Western frontier of the empire. In 885, Byzantine general Nikephoros Phokas the Elder had a military detachment of Paulicians serving in Southern Italy.[9][22] In 970, some 200,000 Paulicians on Byzantine territory were transferred by the emperor John Tzimisces to Philippopolis in Theme of Thrace and, as a reward for their promise to keep back "the Scythians" (in fact Bulgarians), the emperor granted them religious freedom. This was the beginning of a revival of the sect in the West, however the policy of transfer besides limited economical and military benefits for the empire's Western frontier was disastrous to the empire. Not only Paulicians did not assimilate among the natives, but successfully continued the conversion of natives to their heresy. According to Anna Komnene, by the end of 11th century, Philippopolis and its surroundings were entirely inhabited by heretics and they were joined by new groups of Armenians

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