Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 123

Thread: On the origin of E-M183

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    113
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    E-M183

    On the origin of E-M183

    E-M183 is the most dominant subclade of E-M35 in Northwest Africa and Iberia, although traditionally considered as the Berber marker[1], this post will try to prove that, rather than being a Berber marker it should be considered as a Canaanite marker.

    Chronology
    The MRCA of E-M183 ought to have lived around 2900BP (3500-2400BP)[2]'[3] while Proto-Berber is theorized to have spread earlier (circa 9000BP)[4] or later (circa 1800BP)[5] than the expansion of E-M183 into North Africa. The expansion of Proto-Berber clearly does not fit with the expansion of E-M183 unlike the expansion of Canaanites (circa 3100BP) into Spain (Gadir), Morocco (Lixus) and Tunisia (Utica)[6]. It is worth nothing that E-M183* was so far only found in Spain, Libya and Morocco[3].

    Distribution
    It is commonly noted that E-M183 peaks among Berber-speakers (65-100%)[7]'[8], sometimes as high as 100%[7]. We should, however, examine the distribution of E-M183 through a geographic lense rather an ethnic lense. E-M183 peaks in Morocco (67%) and Tunisia (62%), the two North African countries with the earliest Canaanite settlements, it is rather low in Algeria (44%) which was never colonized by Canaanites[3].

    Furthermore, not all Berber-speakers have a high percentage of E-M183 e.g. Zenatas (48%)[9], some Tuareg groups (16-39%)[10]'[11] and Siwis (12%)[12], nor do all Semitic-speakers have a low percentage of E-M183 e.g. Reguibates(80%)[9]. Thus, it appears that E-M183 cannot be linked with linguistic affiliations.

    Archeogenetics
    Paleolithic North Africans lacked haplogroups ancestral (E-Z827 & E-L19) to E-M183, rather, they carried E-V68 and E-M78 which is ancestral to E-V65[13]. Epipaleolithic Levantines, on the other hand, carried E-Z830[14] which is downstream of E-Z827 like its brother clade E-L19[15]. It seems quite likely that the ancestors of E-M183 North Africans thus lived in the Levant rather than North Africa.

    History
    Antiquity writers attest that North Africa was extensively settled by Canaanites. Procopius, as an example, mentions that the Moors were the first Canaanites to settle into North Africa and were quickly followed by the Phoenicians[16], Sallust mentions that only the Gaetuli and the Libyans were truely native to North Africa, he claims that the Moors and the Numidians [Carthaginians] came from the Middle East[17]. "Berbers" themselves claimed to be Canaanites[18].

    Conclusion
    E-M183 is most likely Canaanite-derived, its MRCA matches the arrival of the Canaanites and E-M183 carriers claim(ed) to be Canaanites. Antiquity writers also attest that Modern North Africans differed from the prior inhabitants of North Africa which is confirmed by genetic testing of Paleolithic North Africans. E-M183 carriers are most likely linked with the spread of Iron or Bronze and Canaanite to North Africa, using their superior weapons they displaced the original inhabitants who carried mainly E-V65, T-M184 and perhaps R1b-V88. Some adopted the language of the prior inhabitants i.e. Berber while most kept their language until the arrival of the Banu Sulaym and the Banu Hilal
    .

    • [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...f_North_Africa
    • [2]: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-M81/
    • [3]: Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81), Morata et al. 2017
    • [4]: Prehistoric Iberia: Genetics, Anthropology, and Linguistics, Page 111
    • [5]: Burials, Migration and Identity in the Ancient Sahara and Beyond, Page 437
    • [6]: The Near East, the Cradle of Western Civilization, Page 43-44
    • [7]: Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco, Reguig et al. 2014
    • [8]: Genetic Structure of Tunisian Ethnic Groups Revealed by Paternal Lineages, Bekada et al. 2014
    • [9]: Genetic Heterogeneity in Algerian Human Populations, Bekada et al. 2015
    • [10]: Deep into the roots of the Libyan Tuareg: a genetic survey of their paternal heritage, Ottoni et al. 2011
    • [11]: Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene pools: maternal and paternal heritage of the Tuareg nomads from the African Sahel, Pereira et al. 2010
    • [12]: The Berber and the Berbers, Dugoujon et al. 2009
    • [13]: Pleistocene North African genomes link Near Eastern and sub-Saharan African human populations, Loosdrecht et al. 2018
    • [14]: The genetic structure of the world's first farmers, Lazaridis et al. 2016
    • [15]: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z827/
    • [16]: Procopius, History of the Wars, Vandalic War, Book 4
    • [17]: Sallust, The War With Jugurtha
    • [18]: Berbers and Others: Beyond Tribe and Nation in the Maghrib, Page 64
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-06-2019 at 08:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    948
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Franchouillard
    Y-DNA
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    E-M183 is the most dominant subclade of E-M35 in Northwest Africa and Iberia, although traditionally considered as the Berber marker[1], this post will try to prove that, rather than being a Berber marker it should be considered as a Canaanite marker.

    Chronology
    The MRCA of E-M183 ought to have lived around 2900BP (3500-2400BP)[2]'[3] while Proto-Berber is theorized to have spread earlier (circa 9000BP)[4] or later (circa 1800BP)[5] than the expansion of E-M183 into North Africa. The expansion of Proto-Berber clearly does not fit with the expansion of E-M183 unlike the expansion of Canaanites (circa 3100BP) into Spain (Gadir), Morocco (Lixus) and Tunisia (Utica)[6]. It is worth nothing that E-M183* was so far only found in Spain, Libya and Morocco[3].
    The Yfull datation is not right. The real datations are older.
    E-M183*M81 has no connection with the Phoenician expansion of the first millenium BC and maybe the 11e centuy BC.

    There is no Canaanite expansion before Phoenician expansion.

    There were severe genetic bottleneck with the great climatic crisis of the 4.2k event (2200BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event , the same event which was responsible of the falls of the Old Egyptian Empire and the Akaddian empire.

    This was also responsible of the recent TMRCAs of M81/M183 and V65 while their birthes are a lot older.

  3. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to palamede For This Useful Post:

     Govan (03-06-2019),  Power77 (03-06-2019)

  4. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    113
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    E-M183

    The Yfull datation is not right. The real datations are older.
    It's not just Y-full, Morata et al. 2017 too place the MRCA of E-M183 between 3000 to 2000 BP.

    E-M183*M81 has no connection with the Phoenician expansion of the first millenium BC and maybe the 11e centuy BC.
    What are your proofs?

    There is no Canaanite expansion before Phoenician expansion.
    Phoenician is a greek exonym for Canaanite...

    There were severe genetic bottleneck with the great climatic crisis of the 4.2k event (2200BC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event , the same event which was responsible of the falls of the Old Egyptian Empire and the Akaddian empire.

    This was also responsible of the recent TMRCAs of M81/M183 and V65 while their birthes are a lot older.
    E-V22 (8500BP)[1] in Egypt experienced no bottleneck nor did E-M34(15000BP)[2] in the Levant. As for E-V65, its carriers were most likely Berbers who lived along the coast and benefited from the introduction of Iron/Bronze by E-M183 Cananites, they may have assisted them in the conquest of North Africa too.


    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-06-2019 at 05:52 PM.

  5. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    592
    Sex
    Location
    Grand Genève
    Y-DNA
    E-M81 (North Africa)
    mtDNA
    I3a1 (Steppe)

    "Paleolithic North Africans lacked haplogroups ancestral (E-Z827 & E-L19) to E-M183" but Fregel et al 2018 found, even if they dont have have enough information to be certain, that two Neolithic individuals from Morocco (6100-6200 BP) they analysed may belong "to a Y-chromosome lineage that is ancestral to the 557 branch, which comprises the North African E-M81 haplogroup"

    https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/su...51115.sapp.pdf (page 41)

    "Within the E-M35 cluster (branch 593), sample IAM.4 is only derived for branch 558 (Figure S5.6). This branch of the tree comprises E-L19 (542 branch) and E-M183 (557 branch) samples. As we also have some information on derived branches from 558, it seems IAM.4 does not cluster with either 542 or 557. A similar result is observed for IAM.5 (Figure S5.7), but in this case one out of 30 SNP intersected within 557 branch is derived. Although, we do not have enough information to be certain, this result could mean that IAM.5 (and maybe IAM.4) belong to a Y-chromosome lineage that is ancestral to the 557 branch, which comprises the North African E-M81 haplogroup. This scenario is plausible as E-M81, and its main clade E-M183, are younger than IAM samples (2,000 – 3,000 years ago)"
    Last edited by E_M81_I3A; 03-06-2019 at 06:15 PM.
    Estimated Ancestry: Western Eurasia 90%, Africa 10% (Ancient North Africa 5%, SSA 5%)
    Living Dna: Europe 83, NearEast 6.8, Africa 10.1 (NorthAfrica 4.6, Yoruba 4.2, Mandinka 1.4)
    Basal K7: Basal 43.7, Villabruna 42.7, ANE 7.7, SSA 4.7, EastEurasian 1
    Global 25: Iberomaurusian 11, WHG 6, Barcin_N 46, Levant_ChL 6, Yamnaya 26, Yoruba 5
    Eurogenes K13: North_Atlantic 26.2, West_Med 24.8, East_Med 17.7, Baltic 8.9, Red_Sea 7.7, Sub-Saharan 5.6, Northeast_African 4.7, West_Asian 3.0

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to E_M81_I3A For This Useful Post:

     Megalophias (03-07-2019),  mershechu (03-16-2019),  palamede (03-06-2019),  Power77 (03-06-2019)

  7. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    113
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    E-M183

    Quote Originally Posted by E_M81_I3A View Post
    "Paleolithic North Africans lacked haplogroups ancestral (E-Z827 & E-L19) to E-M183" but Fregel et al 2018 found, even if they dont have have enough information to be certain, that two Neolithic individuals from Morocco (6100-6200 BP) they analysed may belong "to a Y-chromosome lineage that is ancestral to the 557 branch, which comprises the North African E-M81 haplogroup"

    https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/su...51115.sapp.pdf (page 41)

    "Within the E-M35 cluster (branch 593), sample IAM.4 is only derived for branch 558 (Figure S5.6). This branch of the tree comprises E-L19 (542 branch) and E-M183 (557 branch) samples. As we also have some information on derived branches from 558, it seems IAM.4 does not cluster with either 542 or 557. A similar result is observed for IAM.5 (Figure S5.7), but in this case one out of 30 SNP intersected within 557 branch is derived. Although, we do not have enough information to be certain, this result could mean that IAM.5 (and maybe IAM.4) belong to a Y-chromosome lineage that is ancestral to the 557 branch, which comprises the North African E-M81 haplogroup. This scenario is plausible as E-M81, and its main clade E-M183, are younger than IAM samples (2,000 – 3,000 years ago)"
    E-M81 was already formed long before IAM, so these guys are most likely a dead-end and not ancestral to E-M81 carriers. IAM are more Levantine-shifted than Taforalt too, there is a big chance that they were Proto-Semitic (Para-Semitic?) speakers and most likely a part of the people responsible for the spread of farming in North Africa.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Shamayim For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (03-06-2019)

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    113
    Sex
    Y-DNA
    E-M183

    Morata et al. argued for an Arabian origin or a Post-Carthaginian (Canaanite?) origin, based on E-M183's TMRCA, are they low IQ as well?

    Anyway, feel free to refute my "low IQ arguments", it shouldn't be too hard


    Quote Originally Posted by Low IQ people
    Regardless of using a Bayesian or a Rho-based approach, our findings when using SNP data suggest that E-M183 originated around 2,000 years ago (ya). It is worth to notice that when the tree is calibrated with a slow mutation rate23,24, the TMRCA of E-M183 given by BEAST reaches ~3,000 ya. However, age estimates computed using STR data strongly support that the coalescence time for this haplogroup is around 2,000 ya. We have also computed the coalescence times for each subclade by using Y-STRs (Table 2). The TMRCAs of E-SM001, E-CTS1227, and E-Z5009 are all ~2,000 ya and their confidence intervals broadly overlap with each other and with that of the whole of E-M183, pointing to a rapid radiation. On the contrary, E-PF6794 and its subclade E-PF6789 appear to be more recent, at ~1,500 ya. Interestingly, E-PF6789 is present in most of North Africa and the Near East (Table 1); if, as discussed below, E-M183 may have expanded from East to West, then ~1,500 ya sets an upper limit for this expansion.

    ...

    Regarding E-M183, as mentioned above, we cannot discard an expansion from the Near East and, if so, according to our time estimates, it could have been brought by the Islamic expansion on the 7th century, but definitely not with the Neolithic expansion, which appeared in NW Africa ~7400 BP and may have featured a strong Epipaleolithic persistence31. Moreover, such a recent appearance of E-M183 in NW Africa would fit with the patterns observed in the rest of the genome, where an extensive, male-biased Near Eastern admixture event is registered ~1300 ya, coincidental with the Arab expansion20. An alternative hypothesis would involve that E-M183 was originated somewhere in Northwest Africa and then spread through all the region. Our time estimates for the origin of this haplogroup overlap with the end of the third Punic War (146 BCE), when Carthage (in current Tunisia) was defeated and destroyed, which marked the beginning of Roman hegemony of the Mediterranean Sea. About 2,000 ya North Africa was one of the wealthiest Roman provinces and E-M183 may have experienced the resulting population growth.
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-06-2019 at 08:01 PM.

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    184
    Sex

    How about an expansion from Egypt rather than the Levant.. that may seem more likely.

  11. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    948
    Sex
    Location
    France
    Ethnicity
    Franchouillard
    Y-DNA
    G2a2b2a1b1a2a1-S2808
    mtDNA
    H2a2a1

    Normandie Wallonia
    The STR date calculation is worse than Yfull date. In Yfull M183 formed 13900BP, tmrca 2900BP , M65 formed 8700BP, tmrca 2800BP. The 2 great Maghrebin haplogroups knew the same bottleneck at the same time 2200BC and not 850 or 950BC the erroneous yfull date.


    Berbers were very numerous in North Africa all along the first millenium BC . Punic wars, Jugurtha war . During the phoenician colonization who was commercial firstly , involved an already populated inland, then Carthage levered mercenary armies of tens of thousand Berbers/Lybians/Numids/Maures
    During the reign of Pharaons Merneptah (reigned July or August 1213 BC – May 2, 1203 BC) and RamsesIII (He is thought to have reigned from 1186 to 1155 BC they must struggle against armies of Libyians/Berbers, then there was two Pharaon dynasties issued of Libyans/Berbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty...nasty_of_Egypt from c. 943 BC until 716 BC and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty...nasty_of_Egypt This dynasty consisted of a number of Meshwesh ancient Libyan (Berber) kings, who ruled either as pharaons or independent kings of parts of Upper Egypt from 880 BC to 720 BC, and pharaohs from 837 BC to 728 BC.
    The tribe of the two dynasties was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meshwesh who were known since Amenhotep (Amenophis) III reigning from June 1386 to 1349 BC

    In any way, if the Lybians of these time were E-M183 or not, their great numbers and permanence would not allow the M183 bearers to develop in a way we know nowadays thru North Africa and Sahara until the limits of the Sahel, if M183 hadn't recovered a lot of population from Morroco to Libya thru the 2nd millenium BC from the 2200BC bottleneck.

    So V22, V12 and M34 in Egypt and Levant knew a demographic crisis in 2200BC, but less deeper due probably to the continuous permanence of the water of weakened but always flowing Nile river . At this time, a pharaon complained the Asiatic invasion of rural Egypt , probably the Asiatics fleeing the droughness in the Levant (also remind Abraham and Jacob taking refuge in Egypte)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teachi..._King_Merykara
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_...eriod_of_Egypt
    Last edited by palamede; 03-06-2019 at 09:44 PM.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to palamede For This Useful Post:

     Govan (03-06-2019),  Power77 (03-06-2019)

  13. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,339
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Anglo
    Nationality
    Canadian

    E-M183 peaks in Morocco (67%) and Tunisia (62%), the two North African countries with the earliest Canaanite settlements, it is rather low in Algeria (44%)....
    Continuing that series: 46% in Libya, which was colonized by Phoenicians, 56% in Western Sahara, which wasn't. Mozabites from interior Algeria (n=87) 85%; Tuareg from Mali (n=11) 82%; Tuareg from Burkina Faso (n=18) 78%; Tuareg from Libyan Sahara (n=47) 48%; Tuareg from Niger (n=40) 10%; population of Sousse, which was ancient Hadrumetum (n=220) 45%. I'm not seeing a Phoenician pattern here.

    Paleolithic North Africans lacked haplogroups ancestral (E-Z827 & E-L19) to E-M183, rather, they carried E-V68 and E-M78 which is ancestral to E-V65[13]. Epipaleolithic Levantines, on the other hand, carried E-Z830[14] which is downstream of E-Z827 like its brother clade E-L19[15]. It seems quite likely that the ancestors of E-M183 North Africans thus lived in the Levant rather than North Africa.
    There's one site and one lineage in each case. E-L19 and E-Z830 are united by 4 SNPs, or about 200 years longer than they are with E-V68 per YF. So this is quite meaningless.

    Procopius, as an example, mentions that the Moors were the first Canaanites to settle into North Africa and were quickly followed by the Phoenicians
    Yeah? What does he say exactly?

    Sallust mentions that only the Gaetuli and the Libyans were truely native to North Africa, he claims that the Moors and the Numidians [Carthaginians] came from the Middle East.
    Sallust claims to have heard from Carthaginian histories that the Mauri and Numidians (who are not Carthaginians) were descended from Medes, Persians, and Armenians who were part of the army of Hercules. They fled to North Africa after Hercules died in Spain and intermarried with the indigenous Gaetuli and Libyans. After that the Phoenicians colonists arrived. Lots of stuff from ancient sources is straight up bullshit.

    "Berbers" themselves claimed to be Canaanites.
    Yeah, and Englishmen, Cherokees, Pashtun, and Igbo claim to be lost tribes of Israel.
    Last edited by Megalophias; 03-07-2019 at 03:11 PM.

  14. The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Megalophias For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-07-2019),  drobbah (03-07-2019),  Govan (03-07-2019),  Lank (03-07-2019),  Michalis Moriopoulos (03-11-2019),  NetNomad (03-07-2019),  Numidian (03-07-2019),  palamede (03-07-2019),  pgbk87 (03-16-2019),  Power77 (03-07-2019),  Ruderico (03-07-2019),  Tz85 (03-07-2019)

  15. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    877
    Sex
    Location
    Earth
    Ethnicity
    Italian Slavic Jew
    Y-DNA
    E-V12*Egypt Natufian
    mtDNA
    I5a Levant

    Italy Poland Germany Palatinate Israel
    Lol....
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
    Sephardic Jewish 4.1%
    Balochi Punjab 3.7%
    Caucasus 2.5%
    Urals 1.3%
    Finnish 1.2%
    Lebanese Cypriot 1%
    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Tz85 For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (03-07-2019)

Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. X2M'N Origin?
    By Maximilian in forum X
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 06-06-2017, 08:44 PM
  2. Ancestral origin and Haplogroup origin
    By Smilelover in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-17-2016, 10:26 AM
  3. Origin of E ?
    By #YoloSwag in forum E
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 08-16-2016, 12:28 PM
  4. Origin(s) of Y-DNA J
    By Agamemnon in forum J
    Replies: 57
    Last Post: 09-03-2015, 11:08 PM
  5. DE/YAP+ origin?
    By Ezana in forum Other
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-14-2012, 03:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •