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Thread: On the origin of E-M183

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    E-M81 is clearly linked to the Amoritic expansion as demonstrated above. As for E-M81 being linked to blackness, the populations with the highest frequencies of E-M81 are also the whitest, the most Arab-admixed and Native-admixed populations are typically more SSA-looking which isn't surprising considering that the Arab homeland is right next to Ethiopia, and that J* and J1 peak among two black populations, namely Socotris and Yemenis. Blackness in North Africa is linked to three sources: Natives (E-V65), Arabs (J1) and West Africans (E-M2).
    The J* lineage in Socotra is most likely actually J1 (J-Y19093) and the frequency on that small island is due to a founder effect. Socotra has little to do with the origins of J1.

    J overall originated somewhere near the Caucasus mountains as the proto-Socotra lineage has been found in an ancient sample from the Caucasus (Satsurblia Cave, Georgia).

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    The J* lineage in Socotra is most likely actually J1 (J-Y19093)
    Source?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri1455 View Post
    Source?
    Speculative based on the result of YF15567 from Hadramaut who caries a basal J1 clade. The Socotri are of Hadramauti origin. With all these hundreds of Arabians on yfull I highly doubt that the Socotra lineage isn't on there.

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  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    E-M81 is clearly linked to the Amoritic expansion as demonstrated above. As for E-M81 being linked to blackness, the populations with the highest frequencies of E-M81 are also the whitest, the most Arab-admixed and Native-admixed populations are typically more SSA-looking which isn't surprising considering that the Arab homeland is right next to Ethiopia, and that J* and J1 peak among two black populations, namely Socotris and Yemenis. Blackness in North Africa is linked to three sources: Natives (E-V65), Arabs (J1) and West Africans (E-M2).

    Here's a few quote of ancient authors on the phenotype of Libyans, here the word Libyan isn't ethnic but geographic and most likely designated the E-M81 Canaanites:



    Note that Scylax speaks of "a city beyond towards the sun's setting" i.e. the West, here he is clearly talking about the Westernmost Libyans aka the Moors/Amorites.





    The Egyptians had already noted that North Africa wasn't homogeneous but that there were two populations: the Black Tehennu linked to E-V65, and the White Temehu linked to E-M81.


    White Temehu
    Attachment 29325

    Black Tehenu
    Attachment 29326

    The Iron Age Maghreb crania are almost identical to the Lachish crania that differs significantly from the much closer Iron Age Phoenician crania from Achziv. Culturally speaking, Iron Age North Africans and Lachish Amorites were the only populations to practice angular trephination, this practice set them apart from the whole Mediterranea.
    Rough. You need a new hobby.
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  8. #35
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    Sumerian Syria Mari [12] 2550 BC L2a1 16223T, 16256T, 16261T, 16278T, 16294T, 16309G Fernández 2005
    A Northwest African mtdna (L2a1) was found in Mari. Mari was the home of an Hanean confederacy that ruled over the Iran_N/Anatolia_N-rich populace. It seems that Haneans conquered the Iran_N-rich population ranging from the Levant to Pakistan and Haneanized them. Haneans were later displaced by the people responsible for the Bronze Age collapse.

    Interpolation_maps_for_L2_haplogroup_total.png

  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    A Northwest African mtdna (L2a1) was found in Mari. Mari was the home of an Hanean confederacy that ruled over the Iran_N/Anatolia_N-rich populace. It seems that Haneans conquered the Iran_N-rich population ranging from the Levant to Pakistan and Haneanized them. Haneans were later displaced by the people responsible for the Bronze Age collapse.

    Interpolation_maps_for_L2_haplogroup_total.png
    L2a1 is pan-African. Found all over Africa. It is not of Northwest African origin. You can't claim that.
    Last edited by NetNomad; 03-14-2019 at 11:31 PM.

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  11. #37
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    anthrogenica is suppose to be an anthropology / genetic forum for sharing informations based on hard data not a place for personal fantasies or trolling.

    this is a new low

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri1455 View Post
    Autosomal results in modern Maghrebis is pointing towards the Levant; for example M183 carriers in Libya hold Ibereomaurisian% at 11%; and are Middle Eastern-shifted, while Tunisians hold ibereomaurisian affinity somewhere around 20% while their Levantine% shifts at around 40%;So its highly possible M183 could have came from the East; because ibereromaurisian% show an East to West Cline; where it peaks in the West and Unpeaks in the East; any form of continuation with ibereomaurisians would have to at least exceed 50% yet many Moroccans/Algerians manage to share only 30% affinity with ibereomaurisian which in my opinion is not enough for a continuum. Taforalts themselves cluster much closer to the horn while modern NA cluster closer to the Middle East. so its very hard to dismiss a Middle Eastern expansion for M183.

    comparing ancient and modern populations on a PCA plots is very misleading especially when some of these population have already contributed significantly to the modern one.

    also A PCA position does not always imply admixture. For example, Oceanians cluster between the Japanese and a bit towards SSAs while they are not made up of those two groups.

    taforalt-like pops have contributed about 12% to West Africans alongside the fact being much basal deep in comparison to bottlenecked (basal)eurasians. So, that explain the psedu-ssa PCA shifts. West Africans are a mixture AWA + AEA + ANA + some archaic Homo.


    taforalt has ancestral north african ancestry (ANA) not ssa ,this ancestry is described by ''reich'' as a no-african independent divergent component most closest to OOA population which forms a clade with the new Eurasian lineages (Basal and non-Basal) ,it's basically a basal to basal eurasians.



    ''we infer gene flow in the reverse direction (into Natufians). The Neolithic population from Morocco, closely related to Taforalt17 is also consistent with being descended from the source of this gene flow, and appears to have no admixture from the Levantine Neolithic (Supplementary Information section 3). If our model is correct, Epipaleolithic Natufians trace part of their ancestry to North Africa, consistent with morphological and archaeological studies that indicate a spread of morphological features22 and artifacts from North Africa into the Near East. Such a scenario would also explain the presence of Y-chromosome haplogroup E in the Natufians and Levantine farmers6, a common link between the Levant and Africa.

    Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.''
    Last edited by Mohammed Zayani; 03-15-2019 at 01:18 AM.

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  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohammed Zayani View Post
    comparing ancient and modern populations on a PCA plots is very misleading especially when some of these population have already contributed significantly to the modern one.

    also A PCA position does not always imply admixture. For example, Oceanians cluster between the Japanese and a bit towards SSAs while they are not made up of those two groups.

    taforalt-like pops have contributed about 12% to West Africans alongside the fact being much basal deep in comparison to bottlenecked (basal)eurasians. So, that explain the psedu-ssa PCA shifts. West Africans are a mixture AWA + AEA + ANA + some archaic Homo.


    taforalt has ancestral north african ancestry (ANA) not ssa ,this ancestry is described by ''reich'' as a no-african independent divergent component most closest to OOA population which forms a clade with the new Eurasian lineages (Basal and non-Basal) ,it's basically a basal to basal eurasians.
    Modern pop. are not the same as ancient ones I agree; but clearly Berbers and Proto-Berbers are not the same population; the continuum % with Ibereomaurisian is still low in Libya/Tunisia; 20% is not enough for a continuum; it has to exceed at least 50% to make a strong case for continuum; but genetically speaking the Maghreb is Middle Eastern influenced; which is clearly not the case with Taforalt.
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-15-2019 at 02:17 AM.

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Speculative based on the result of YF15567 from Hadramaut who caries a basal J1 clade. The Socotri are of Hadramauti origin. With all these hundreds of Arabians on yfull I highly doubt that the Socotra lineage isn't on there.
    Interesting, wouldn't this open another case where we have to study Hadramout and the surrounding regions for hidden/older J1 clades...

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