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Thread: On the origin of E-M183

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    Sure but I don't know where you're at. I have personally no idea what is the origin of EM183. It had a very recent TMRCA, but I have no idea where you guys got the idea that EM183 is closely tied to Proto-Berber. If anything there are about as much chance EM81 were Berberized folk to begin with. I don't know.

    Libya/parts of Tunisia has a huge Middle Eastern shift, though it is in part due to Arabian admixture. Once you leave out Arabian admixture, there are definitely about 3 'extreme' sub-groups of Berbers : an Eastern Levantine Neolithic-shifted one (in Libya/Tunisia), a more EEF/steppe-shited one (Guanches, coastal Berber pop as Riffians, Kabyles go) and a more southern one with a huge Iberomaurusian/Taforalt continuity (Southern Moroccans) well over 45%.
    Scaled models. Not a huge fan but hey ho:

    [1] "distance%=2.5308 / distance=0.025308"

    Moroccan:MCA9

    Iberomaurusian 40.6
    Barcin_N 34.5
    Levant_N 10.9
    Yamnaya_Samara 9.7
    Yoruba 4.3


    [1] "distance%=3.0651 / distance=0.030651"

    Guanche:guanche11_scaled

    Iberomaurusian 37.75
    Barcin_N 36.80
    Yamnaya_Samara 11.60
    Levant_N 10.10
    Yoruba 3.75


    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    Berbers were dominated by E-M78(V65 and V13) but later received E-M183 from Amorites. Guanches, as an example, were almost as much as E-M78 than E-M183.

    Attachment 29383
    You are being anachronic. E-M78 is some 13300 years old, V13 just 4500
    Last edited by Ruderico; 03-15-2019 at 03:37 AM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=1.7679"

    Ruderico

    Celtiberian,76.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,15
    Guanche,8.4

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  3. #52
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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Scaled models. Not a huge fan but hey ho:

    [1] "distance%=2.5308 / distance=0.025308"

    Moroccan:MCA9

    Iberomaurusian 40.6
    Barcin_N 34.5
    Levant_N 10.9
    Yamnaya_Samara 9.7
    Yoruba 4.3


    [1] "distance%=3.0651 / distance=0.030651"

    Guanche:guanche11_scaled

    Iberomaurusian 37.75
    Barcin_N 36.80
    Yamnaya_Samara 11.60
    Levant_N 10.10
    Yoruba 3.75



    You are being anachronic. E-M78 is some 13300 years old, V13 just 4500
    40% Ibereomaurisian??? Either the scale was done wrong or that was a Souss/Southern Moroccan; Moroccans an average will share something similar to this:


    [1] distance%=2.5772 / distance=0.025772
    Algerian
    Levant_BA 30.9
    Iberomaurusian 24.1
    Iberia_EN 17.9
    Iberia_BA 14.45
    Yoruba 11.85
    Ethiopia_4500BP 0.8
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0
    Levant_N 0
    Natufian 0

    [1] distance%=1.7158 / distance=0.017158
    Moroccan
    Levant_BA 35.3
    Iberomaurusian 25.85
    Yoruba 14.6
    Iberia_EN 13.35
    Iberia_BA 10.9
    Ethiopia_4500BP 0
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0
    Levant_N 0
    Natufian 0

    [1] distance%=1.6931 / distance=0.016931
    Libyan
    Levant_BA 56.8
    Iberomaurusian 11.75
    Iberia_BA 10.05
    Yoruba 8.55
    Natufian 6.55
    Ethiopia_4500BP 3.4
    Levant_N 2.9
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_EN 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0

    G25 calculators used above correlates with Autosomal/Pca clusters; the Barcin N is skewed because it represents a faraway population; on average Maghrebis are Middle Eastern shifted; so you need to metric them with Levantine/Iberian scales to get the most accurate results
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-15-2019 at 03:56 AM.

  6. #54
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    I'm using E-M78 as a group but they may have carried old sub-clades like this E-V68* Copper Age North African.

    Anyway, the key point is that the Copper Age North African sample was E-V68, not E-L19 nor E-M183. This mean that E-L19/E-M183 do not derive from the Capsians but came much later, the fact that one E-M183 was 18% Levantine points towards post-Copper Age Levant.

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    What do you get for Guanche11?
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
    Hidden Content


    [1] "distance%=1.7679"

    Ruderico

    Celtiberian,76.6
    Roman_Imperial_proxy,15
    Guanche,8.4

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  9. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri1455 View Post
    40% Ibereomaurisian??? Either the scale was done wrong or that was a Souss/Southern Moroccan; Moroccans an average will share something similar to this:


    [1] distance%=2.5772 / distance=0.025772
    Algerian
    Levant_BA 30.9
    Iberomaurusian 24.1
    Iberia_EN 17.9
    Iberia_BA 14.45
    Yoruba 11.85
    Ethiopia_4500BP 0.8
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0
    Levant_N 0
    Natufian 0

    [1] distance%=1.7158 / distance=0.017158
    Moroccan
    Levant_BA 35.3
    Iberomaurusian 25.85
    Yoruba 14.6
    Iberia_EN 13.35
    Iberia_BA 10.9
    Ethiopia_4500BP 0
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0
    Levant_N 0
    Natufian 0

    [1] distance%=1.6931 / distance=0.016931
    Libyan
    Levant_BA 56.8
    Iberomaurusian 11.75
    Iberia_BA 10.05
    Yoruba 8.55
    Natufian 6.55
    Ethiopia_4500BP 3.4
    Levant_N 2.9
    Iberia_ChL 0
    Iberia_EN 0
    Iberia_MN 0
    Iberia_Southwest_CA 0

    G25 calculators used above correlates with Autosomal/Pca clusters; the Barcin N is skewed because it represents a faraway population; on average Maghrebis are Middle Eastern shifted; so you need to metric them with Levantine/Iberian scales to get the most accurate results
    Not necessarily .

    Those modeling are in the fringe of inflated. Levant Bronze Age is a population with a large Iranian Neolithic component.

    Levant Neolithic makes more sense, but needs an increase of Iberomaurusian %.
    Last edited by Govan; 03-15-2019 at 04:46 AM.

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  11. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    What do you get for Guanche11?
    Guanche would score something similar to a modern day NA

    ADMIXTURE-Plot-ADMIXTURE-analysis-at-K-10-of-the-five-Guanche-individuals-that-yielded.png

    In the admixture above you can see they share affinity to Saharawis/Mozabites with slight differences
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-15-2019 at 04:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    That's just because those people who brought additional Levant N, obviously would also have brought a layer of Mesolithic North African ancestry alongside (I am talking about a reasonable road from the east, Libya/Egypt), which increases Iberomaurusians %. That's just question of calculator analysis.

    Levant N also make more sense than Levant BA. But if Levant Bronze age has both Iranian Neolithic and a layer of Mesolithic North African via Egypt it can be reasonable.
    Libyans/Egyptians are still Middle Eastern-shifted and they are much closer to Middle Eastern groups than Berber groups for example look at the distance they share with Syrians and the distance they share with Chenini-Douriet Berbers. While on "average" Tunisian/Algerian/Moroccan are clearly influenced by the Middle East, because they shift farther away from chenini-douriet and its doubtful this influence only happend in Neolithic times.
    msw218f1.jpg
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-15-2019 at 04:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    The new study on Iberia just came out and just as i predicted the Copper Age North African isn't E-L19 but E-V68. E-V13 is nowhere to be found in the Greco-Roman period, but suddenly explodes in the Moorish period. It seems that E-V13 is one of the major Berber lineage. I wonder how Greeks and Albanians got their E-V13...

    Last but not least one of the two E-M183 is 18% Levantine

    It appears that i was right and that Berber is rather related to E-M78 than E-L19. A Berber origin of E-M183 is definitely dead.
    E-V13 isn't "one of the major Berber lineage", it's barely found outside of Europe. V13 has no diversity whatsoever in the north Africa region as well as basal clades being almost non-existent, let alone the extremely low frequency and the fact that most clades there are in fact of European origin. V13's origin is clearly in the Balkans or west Asia.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    As a quick reminder, E-V13 wasn't found among Minoans (Lazaridis et al. 2017), Mycenaeans (Lazaridis et al. 2017), Greeks (Olalde et al. 2019) and Romans (Amorim et al. 2018; Olalde et al. 2019). We have enough Hellenic and Roman samples to safely claim that E-V13 is unrelated to Greco-Romans, the only subclade of E-M78 found among Romans was E-V22. E-V13 is nowhere to be found in Iberia until Berber invaded it. It would also explain why E-M183 is almost absent from Iberia unlike E-V13.

    Suggesting that Basques were Indo-European (paternally) was also considered insane not too long ago. Suggesting that Natufians weren't Sardinian-like was also considered insane.
    You are completely wrong when it comes to your theory on the spread of V13. We don't have enough Hellenic or Roman results, at least when it comes to Y-DNA results. E-V13 has already been found in Neolithic Europe, such an example is the sample from northern Spain that was part of the Cardium pottery culture. E-V13 was also found in an Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad as well as CTS5856 being found in a Scythian sample from Moldova. You also seem to have forgotten that the E-V13 sample found in the Iberian paper was in fact a Visigoth, though of likely Balkan origin going by autosomal DNA. Nothing Berber

    Let alone the fact that the father clade of V13, L618, has been found in various samples from Europe and how V13 reaches it's highest diversity in the Balkans. E-M183 is the main branch of E1b among Berbers. It has clear associations with northern Africa in terms of it's origins, probably linked to Capsian culture. E-L19 was found in Neolithic north African samples from Morocco as well as a likely M183* sample. Basal clades of M183 also seem to popping up in north Africa. In Iberia M183 is the group linked to the Islamic occupation, it peaks in areas where north African admix is strongest as well as the clades showing association to northern Africa.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 03-16-2019 at 01:47 AM.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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