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Thread: On the origin of E-M183

  1. #11
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    [QUOTE=Megalophias;552350]
    Continuing that series: 46% in Libya, which was colonized by Phoenicians, 56% in Western Sahara, which wasn't. Mozabites from interior Algeria (n=87) 85%; Tuareg from Mali (n=11) 82%; Tuareg from Burkina Faso (n=18) 78%; Tuareg from Libyan Sahara (n=47) 48%; Tuareg from Niger (n=40) 10%. I'm not seeing a Phoenician pattern here.
    Libya was less heavily settled by Canaanites than the rest of North Africa, it was also the home of nomadic Berbers such as the Luwata. As for the Tuaregs, it is well known they came from Tafilalt in Morocco.

    There's one site and one lineage in each case. E-L19 and E-Z830 are united by 4 SNPs, or about 200 years longer than they are with E-V68 per YF. So this is quite meaningless.
    The point is that North Africa was predominantly E-M78/E-V65, and then suddenly E-M183 appears and dominates North Africa.

    Yeah? What does he say exactly?
     
    When the Hebrews had withdrawn from Egypt and had come near the boundaries of Palestine, Moses, a wise man, who was their leader on the journey, died, and the leadership was passed on to Joshua, the son of Nun, who led this people into Palestine, and, by displaying a valour in war greater than that natural to a man, gained possession of the land. And after overthrowing all the nations he [14-24] easily won the cities, and he seemed to be altogether invincible. Now at that time the whole country along the sea from Sidon as far as the boundaries of Egypt was called Phoenicia. And one king in ancient times held sway over it, as is agreed by all who have written the earliest accounts of the Phoenicians. In that country there dwelt very populous tribes, the Gergesites and the Jebusites and some others with other names by which they are called in the history of the Hebrews.[33] Now when these nations saw that the invading general was an irresistible prodigy, they emigrated from their ancestral homes and made their way to Egypt, which adjoined their country. And finding there no place sufficient for them to dwell in, since there has been a great population in Aegypt from ancient times, they proceeded to Libya. And they established numerous cities and took possession of the whole of Libya as far as the Pillars of Heracles, and there they have lived even up to my time, using the Phoenician tongue. They also built a fortress in Numidia, where now is the city called Tigisis. In that place are two columns made of white stone near by the great spring, having Phoenician letters cut in them which say in the Phoenician tongue: "We are they who fled from before the face of Joshua, the robber, the son of Nun." There were also other nations settled in Libya before the Moors, who on account of having been established there from of old were said to be children of the soil. And because of this they said that Antaeus, their king, who wrestled with [24-2] Heracles in Clipea,[34] was a son of the earth. And in later times those who removed from Phoenicia with Dido came to the inhabitants of Libya as to kinsmen. And they willingly allowed them to found and hold Carthage. But as time went on Carthage became a powerful and populous city. And a battle took place between them and their neighbours, who, as has been said, had come from Palestine before them and are called Moors at the present time, and the Carthaginians defeated them and compelled them to live a very great distance away from Carthage. Later on the Romans gained the supremacy over all of them in war, and settled the Moors at the extremity of the inhabited land of Libya, and made the Carthaginians and the other Libyans subject and tributary to themselves. And after this the Moors won many victories over the Vandals and gained possession of the land now called Mauretania, extending from Gadira as far as the boundaries of Caesarea,[35] as well as the most of Libya which remained. Such, then, is the story of the settlement of the Moors in Libya.


    Coincidently, the Jebusites have been linked to the Bronze Age Yabusu[1] and one of the subclan of the Yabusu were the Amurru[2].

    Sallust claims to have heard from Carthaginian histories that the Mauri and Numidians (who are not Carthaginians) were descended from Medes, Persians, and Armenians who were part of the army of Hercules. They fled to North Africa after Hercules died in Spain and intermarried with the indigenous Gaetuli and Libyans. After that the Phoenicians colonists arrived. Lots of stuff from ancient sources is straight up bullshit.
    Yeah, and Englishmen, Cherokees, Pashtun, and Igbo claim to be lost tribes of Israel.
    Englishmen are R1b, Cherokees Q, Pashtuns R1a, and Igbos E1b1a, all these lineages are unrelated to the Prehistoric Levant unlike E-M183. Furthermore, these claims were made under heavy Islamic/Christian influence. Are you denying that there were Canaanite speakers in North Africa?

    • [1]: The Old Testament: In the Light of the Historical Records and Legends of Assyria and Babylonia, Page 324
    • [2]: Letters to the King of Mari: A New Translation, with Historical Introduction, Page 15
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-07-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    Libya was less heavily settled by Canaanites than the rest of North Africa, it was also the home of nomadic Berbers such as the Luwata. As for the Tuaregs, it is well known they came from Tafilalt in Morocco.
    The frequencies just don't really match Phoenician settlement; of course that could be due to thousands of years of migration and drift since then, but that is the same as any other origin.

    The point is that North Africa was predominantly E-M78/E-V65, and then suddenly E-M183 appears and dominates North Africa.
    We don't know that North Africa was predominantly E-M78. We only know E-M81 is young (as is E-V65). Appearing suddenly in the Levant doesn't magically work better than appearing suddenly in North Africa. Now if we find (pre-)E-M81 in the Levant at the appropriate time period, of course that would be different. So far the closest we have is Bronze Age Sidon, with J1-Z2313 and J2b1-M205. The same in Bronze Age Jordan; T1a and E-Z830 in Chalcolithic Israel; E-Z830, E-M78, H2-P96, and T1 in Neolithic Jordan; and E-Z830 in Epipalaeolithic Israel. On the other hand in Neolithic Morocco we have at least a cousin to E-M81. E-PF2431 is next closest, but not really clear where that comes from (and it's much older).

     
    When the Hebrews had withdrawn from Egypt and had come near the boundaries of Palestine, Moses, a wise man, who was their leader on the journey, died, and the leadership was passed on to Joshua, the son of Nun, who led this people into Palestine, and, by displaying a valour in war greater than that natural to a man, gained possession of the land. And after overthrowing all the nations he easily won the cities, and he seemed to be altogether invincible. Now at that time the whole country along the sea from Sidon as far as the boundaries of Egypt was called Phoenicia. And one king in ancient times held sway over it, as is agreed by all who have written the earliest accounts of the Phoenicians. In that country there dwelt very populous tribes, the Gergesites and the Jebusites and some others with other names by which they are called in the history of the Hebrews. Now when these nations saw that the invading general was an irresistible prodigy, they emigrated from their ancestral homes and made their way to Egypt, which adjoined their country. And finding there no place sufficient for them to dwell in, since there has been a great population in Aegypt from ancient times, they proceeded to Libya. And they established numerous cities and took possession of the whole of Libya as far as the Pillars of Heracles, and there they have lived even up to my time, using the Phoenician tongue. They also built a fortress in Numidia, where now is the city called Tigisis. In that place are two columns made of white stone near by the great spring, having Phoenician letters cut in them which say in the Phoenician tongue: "We are they who fled from before the face of Joshua, the robber, the son of Nun." There were also other nations settled in Libya before the Moors, who on account of having been established there from of old were said to be children of the soil. And because of this they said that Antaeus, their king, who wrestled with Heracles in Clipea, was a son of the earth. And in later times those who removed from Phoenicia with Dido came to the inhabitants of Libya as to kinsmen. And they willingly allowed them to found and hold Carthage. But as time went on Carthage became a powerful and populous city. And a battle took place between them and their neighbours, who, as has been said, had come from Palestine before them and are called Moors at the present time, and the Carthaginians defeated them and compelled them to live a very great distance away from Carthage. Later on the Romans gained the supremacy over all of them in war, and settled the Moors at the extremity of the inhabited land of Libya, and made the Carthaginians and the other Libyans subject and tributary to themselves. And after this the Moors won many victories over the Vandals and gained possession of the land now called Mauretania, extending from Gadira as far as the boundaries of Caesarea, as well as the most of Libya which remained. Such, then, is the story of the settlement of the Moors in Libya.
    Thank you. So we have only the word of Procopius for the Moors being of Phoenician origin, a couple thousand years after the supposed migration would have occurred. North Africa was heavily Christian for centuries before Procopius; the same skepticism should apply to his sources as to other people trying to find their origins in the Bible.

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  4. #13
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    The frequencies just don't really match Phoenician settlement; of course that could be due to thousands of years of migration and drift since then, but that is the same as any other origin.
    E-M81 peaks in Morocco and Tunisia, the only countries dominated by Canaanites.

    We don't know that North Africa was predominantly E-M78. We only know E-M81 is young (as is E-V65). Appearing suddenly in the Levant doesn't magically work better than appearing suddenly in North Africa. Now if we find (pre-)E-M81 in the Levant at the appropriate time period, of course that would be different.
    Taforalt and Afalu are considered the most representative sites, anthropologically speaking, of the Iberomaurusian culture. Iberomaurusians, as a whole, were much closer to the Taforalt population than to the IAM population. It is obvious that coastal North Africans are descended from White Canaanites rather than Somali-like Iberomaurusians.

    So far the closest we have is Bronze Age Sidon, with J1-Z2313 and J2b1-M205. The same in Bronze Age Jordan; T1a and E-Z830 in Chalcolithic Israel; E-Z830, E-M78, H2-P96, and T1 in Neolithic Jordan; and E-Z830 in Epipalaeolithic Israel. On the other hand in Neolithic Morocco we have at least a cousin to E-M81. E-PF2431 is next closest, but not really clear where that comes from (and it's much older).
    These Bronze Age "Levantines" are clearly non-AA speakers (Mittanians), they have as much Iran_N as Levant_N and their uniparental markers aren't related to the Natufians. Natufians represent the core of the pre-Arab Levantine population[1].

    Thank you. So we have only the word of Procopius for the Moors being of Phoenician origin, a couple thousand years after the supposed migration would have occurred. North Africa was heavily Christian for centuries before Procopius; the same skepticism should apply to his sources as to other people trying to find their origins in the Bible.
    The Moors weren't Christian[2], they hunted them and burnt down their churches. Only Africa Proconsularis and Aegyptus were somewhat Christian.

    • 1: Faces from the past: diachronic patterns in the biology of human populations from the eastern Mediterranean : papers in honour of Patricia Smith, Page 258
    • 2: Religious Diversity in Late Antiquity, Page 487
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-08-2019 at 11:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    E-M81 peaks in Morocco and Tunisia, the only countries dominated by Canaanites.


    Taforalt and Afalu are considered the most representative sites, anthropologically speaking, of the Iberomaurusian culture. Iberomaurusians, as a whole, were much closer to the Taforalt population than to the IAM population. It is obvious that coastal North Africans are descended from White Canaanites rather than Somali-like Iberomaurusians.


    These Bronze Age "Levantines" are clearly non-AA speakers (Mittanians), they have as much Iran_N as Levant_N and their uniparental markers aren't related to the Natufians. Natufians represent the core of the pre-Arab Levantine population[1].



    The Moors weren't Christian[2], they hunted them and burnt down their churches. Only Africa Proconsularis and Aegyptus were somewhat Christian.

    • 1: Faces from the past: diachronic patterns in the biology of human populations from the eastern Mediterranean : papers in honour of Patricia Smith, Page 258
    • 2: Religious Diversity in Late Antiquity, Page 487
    Morocco and Tunisia were never dominated by Canaanites.
    DNA Tribes

    Balto - North Slavic 22.4%
    Northwest European 18.8%
    Italian Greek 18.1%
    Persian Jewish 9%
    Iberian 6.3%
    Ashkenazi Jewish 5.9%
    Basque 4.3%
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    Urals 1.3%
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    Other 1.4%

    Sephardic Jewish Turkey 18.8%
    Argyll and Bute Scottish Highlands 18.6%
    Sardinia 18.4%
    Lithuania 15.7%
    Russia Voronezh 7%
    Belgium 5.6%
    Syrian Jewish 4.9%
    Libyan Jewish 4.4%
    Russia Tver 2.4%
    Azerbaijani Jewish 2.2%

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    These Bronze Age "Levantines" are clearly non-AA speakers (Mittanians), they have as much Iran_N as Levant_N and their uniparental markers aren't related to the Natufians. Natufians represent the core of the pre-Arab Levantine population[1].
    On the contrary, it's pretty clear that the EBA samples from Ayn Ghazal and the MBA samples from Sidon were early NW Semitic speakers. All samples predate the emergence of the Mitanni kingdom, which never ruled Sidon or Ayn Ghazal for that matter. Furthermore, both of the lineages that were found in the samples, J1-Z2324 and J2b1-M205, are closely tied to Semitic-speaking groups, seem to track the dispersal of early Semitic speakers both in terms of distribution and phylogeny and have TMRCA estimates that correlate with the break up of Proto-Semitic during the first half of the 4th millennium BCE. The sample from Sidon was even positive for FGC11, a branch of J1-L858 most commonly found amongst Arabic and Old South Arabian-speaking groups, that should tell you how incorrect your claim is.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-09-2019 at 01:28 AM.
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    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tz85 View Post
    Morocco and Tunisia were never dominated by Canaanites.
    Sure
    Carthage and the other Canaanite settlements never existed, and the thousands of Punic inscriptions (as opposed to a few hundred Berber inscriptions, mostly found in Algeria) are all fake.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon
    On the contrary, it's pretty clear that the EBA samples from Ayn Ghazal and the MBA samples from Sidon were early NW Semitic speakers. All samples predate the emergence of the Mitanni kingdom, which never ruled Sidon or Ayn Ghazal for that matter. Furthermore, both of the lineages that were found in the samples, J1-Z2324 and J2b1-M205, are closely tied to Semitic-speaking groups, seem to track the dispersal of early Semitic speakers both in terms of distribution and phylogeny and have TMRCA estimates that correlate with the break up of Proto-Semitic during the first half of the 4th millennium BCE. The sample from Sidon was even positive for FGC11, a branch of J1-L858 most commonly found amongst Arabic and Old South Arabian-speaking groups, that should tell you incorrect your claim is.
    These samples aren't representative of the whole Levant at most of Sidon and Ayn Ghazal, which i doubt. Christian Palestinians aka Canaanites are the best representative of the pre-Arab population of the Levant and they are E1b1b-rich unlike Jews and Arabs who both wholeheartedly admit to be invaders from Iran_N-rich Sumer.

    J1/J2 Levantines are Canaanite-speakers but not Canaanite, just like E1b1a Jamaicans are IE-speakers but not Indo-European.

    Edit: E-M81 is found among Pure-Blooded Levantines (some Lebanese and Palestinian Christians) while E-V65 is absent among them. Coincidence? I think not.
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-09-2019 at 02:10 AM.

  9. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    These samples aren't representative of the whole Levant at most of Sidon and Ayn Ghazal, which i doubt. Christian Palestinians aka Canaanites are the best representative of the pre-Arab population of the Levant and they are E1b1b-rich unlike Jews and Arabs who both wholeheartedly admit to be invaders from Iran_N-rich Sumer.

    J1/J2 Levantines are Canaanite-speakers but not Canaanite, just like E1b1a Jamaicans are IE-speakers but not Indo-European.
    Arguing with you is a waste of time. I strongly encourage the moderators here to take an interest in you.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
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    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


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  11. #18
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    Censoring me will not change the genetic makeup of Christian Palestinians nor will it change the fact that Abraham came from Uruk according to your own Holy Books. I didn't break any rule btw

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    Wait, what do Palestinian Christians have to do with it? And what *is* their genetic make-up - apart from having 32% E-M35 in a sample of 44?

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    Autosomal results in modern Maghrebis is pointing towards the Levant; for example M183 carriers in Libya hold Ibereomaurisian% at 11%; and are Middle Eastern-shifted, while Tunisians hold ibereomaurisian affinity somewhere around 20% while their Levantine% shifts at around 40%;So its highly possible M183 could have came from the East; because ibereromaurisian% show an East to West Cline; where it peaks in the West and Unpeaks in the East; any form of continuation with ibereomaurisians would have to at least exceed 50% yet many Moroccans/Algerians manage to share only 30% affinity with ibereomaurisian which in my opinion is not enough for a continuum. Taforalts themselves cluster much closer to the horn while modern NA cluster closer to the Middle East. so its very hard to dismiss a Middle Eastern expansion for M183.
    Last edited by Missouri1455; 03-09-2019 at 02:05 PM.

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