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Thread: On the origin of E-M183

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    E-V13 isn't "one of the major Berber lineage", it's barely found outside of Europe. V13 has no diversity whatsoever in the north Africa region as well as basal clades being almost non-existent, let alone the extremely low frequency and the fact that most clades there are in fact of European origin. V13's origin is clearly in the Balkans or west Asia.
    Prior to that it came from North Africa. E-V13/E-L618 is related to E-V22 which is definitely Northeast African/North African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In Iberia M183 is the group linked to the Islamic occupation, it peaks in areas where north African admix is strongest as well as the clades showing association to northern Africa.
    Considering the new paper, I'm skeptical of the first sentence. It seems it's mostly (but not only) a consequence of North African migration somewhen during the Roman period, which is why you find it in places that barely had Muslim occupation, such as Galicia, northern Portugal or even Cantabria. But yes, naturally the two go hand-in-hand together

    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Prior to that it came from North Africa. E-V13/E-L618 is related to E-V22 which is definitely Northeast African/North African.
    E-V13 is 4500 years old, E-V22 is 8400 years old. They might be related, but distantly so
    Last edited by Ruderico; 03-16-2019 at 11:06 AM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
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    [1] "distance%=1.7679"

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by NetNomad View Post
    Prior to that it came from North Africa. E-V13/E-L618 is related to E-V22 which is definitely Northeast African/North African.
    Not V13 itself though, based on the current data it is most likely that V13 originated either in the Balkans or west Asia. Sure, it's ancestral clade, Z1919, was of North African origin. Point was that it isn't the "major Berber lineage" as it has no association with them whatsoever.
    Ftdna MyOrigins 2.0: 100% SE European

    23andme: 100% Balkan

    Geneplaza K25: 100% Greek-Albanian

    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You are completely wrong when it comes to your theory on the spread of V13. We don't have enough Hellenic or Roman results, at least when it comes to Y-DNA results. E-V13 has already been found in Neolithic Europe, such an example is the sample from northern Spain that was part of the Cardium pottery culture. E-V13 was also found in an Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad as well as CTS5856 being found in a Scythian sample from Moldova. You also seem to have forgotten that the E-V13 sample found in the Iberian paper was in fact a Visigoth, though of likely Balkan origin going by autosomal DNA. Nothing Berber

    Yep, and user Aspurg on eupedia believes he has possibly found clades of EV13 that are good candidate for Illyrian origin in the Dorian Greek.

    Quoting him:

    "some clades under Z5018 seem to have migrated more to the West pre-second Illyrian wave in LBA/EIA, and they show tendencies of spreading with Illyrian groups. Namely L241 and Y145455. Same might go for some CTS9320 clades, especially under Z16988. You spoke few times of Illyrian-Dorian connection. I believe this connection existed and I have found some clear genetic traces of it, and one of those seems L241. I think there are going to be Ancient Greek L241 clades (already there are L241+ there but without deeper tests) and PH2180 is Illyrian, same as some L241*"

  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    You are completely wrong when it comes to your theory on the spread of V13. We don't have enough Hellenic or Roman results, at least when it comes to Y-DNA results. E-V13 has already been found in Neolithic Europe, such an example is the sample from northern Spain that was part of the Cardium pottery culture. E-V13 was also found in an Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad as well as CTS5856 being found in a Scythian sample from Moldova. You also seem to have forgotten that the E-V13 sample found in the Iberian paper was in fact a Visigoth, though of likely Balkan origin going by autosomal DNA. Nothing Berber

    Let alone the fact that the father clade of V13, L618, has been found in various samples from Europe and how V13 reaches it's highest diversity in the Balkans. E-M183 is the main branch of E1b among Berbers. It has clear associations with northern Africa in terms of it's origins, probably linked to Capsian culture. E-L19 was found in Neolithic north African samples from Morocco as well as a likely M183* sample. Basal clades of M183 also seem to popping up in north Africa. In Iberia M183 is the group linked to the Islamic occupation, it peaks in areas where north African admix is strongest as well as the clades showing association to northern Africa.
    Taforalt didn't carry E-L19 nor did this Copper Age North African, rather, they carried E-M78/E-V68/E-L618. E-V13 was introduced by Berber colonists as evidenced by its absence among Bronze Age & Iron Age Europeans. As for E-M183, as pointed above one carries Levantine ancestry (18%), a fact which implies a foreign origin. E-M81 peaks in Morocco, a country never colonized by Capsians.

    The so called Visigoths were at least 30% North African, they were indeed from the Visigothic period but they certainly weren't Visigoth or European for that matter.

    Edit: North African ancestry in Iberia is the strongest in the west and the south yet, E-M81 peaks in the north among Paesiegos (40%). The people who brought North African ancestry into Iberia carried E-M78/E-V68/E-L618/E-V65/E-V13 e.g. I4246 & I3981 individuals. This isn't debatable, this is a fact.
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-16-2019 at 12:46 PM.

  8. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    Taforalt didn't carry E-L19 nor did this Copper Age North African, rather, they carried E-M78/E-V68/E-L618. E-V13 was introduced by Berber colonists as evidenced by its absence among Bronze Age & Iron Age Europeans. As for E-M183, as pointed above one carries Levantine ancestry (18%), a fact which implies a foreign origin. E-M81 peaks in Morocco, a country never colonized by Capsians.

    The so called Visigoths were at least 30% North African, they were indeed from the Visigothic period but they certainly weren't Visigoth or European for that matter.
    You are so wrong I don't even know how you have come to this theory. You must not know anything about EV13 to even think you can convince someone with his. The most diversity of EV13 is around northern balkans, and it's most definitely originally a central europe/balkan group as evidenced by the distant clades that Germans have.

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  10. #67
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    I don't need to convince anyone, facts speak for themselves, E-V13 is absent among Greeks and Romans who carried R1b and J while their "descendants" carry a Moorish bloodline. Diversity means nothing, Berbers brought various subclades into Europe when they conquered it.

    You will not get around the facts that Greeks and Romans were 0% North African and did not carry E, while North African-admixed (30 to 60%) "Iberians" carried E.

    Figure 2.png


    I8206 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8205 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8208 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8211 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R
    I8212 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R
    I8210 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2
    I8202 NE_Iberia_RomP (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a
    I8209 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8216 NE_Iberia_RomP (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8341 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1)NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8344 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1)NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a
    I6492 NE_Iberia_RomP R1b1a1a2a1a2c
    I6491 NE_Iberia_RomP R

  11. #68
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    This has to be one of the most stupidifying thread in this forum
    Last edited by Ruderico; 03-16-2019 at 01:35 PM.
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
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    [1] "distance%=1.7679"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    E-V13 was introduced by Berber colonists as evidenced by its absence among Bronze Age & Iron Age Europeans.
    So I presume you have had insight into dozens of Bronze & Iron Age samples from Balkans that are yet to be sequenced and published?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamayim View Post
    The people who brought North African ancestry into Iberia carried E-M78/E-V68/E-L618/E-V65/E-V13 e.g. I4246 & I3981 individuals. This isn't debatable, this is a fact.
    Not a fact, maybe you should google what fact actually means? E-V13 is clearly European clade, most likely originating in Balkans, and dispersing during BA to the rest of Europe. It's parent clade, L618, probably originated in North Africa, but it was thousands of years before Berbers even existed. Both L618 and V13 are found in Cardial Ware Neolithic, in Croatia and Spain, respectively. Again, thousands of years before Berbers existed.

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  15. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronze Age & Iron Age Greco-Romans
    I8206 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8205 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8208 NE_Iberia_Hel (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8211 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R
    I8212 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R
    I8210 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2
    I8202 NE_Iberia_RomP (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a
    I8209 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8216 NE_Iberia_RomP (Emp˙ries2) J
    I8341 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a2a1a2
    I8344 NE_Iberia_Greek (Emp˙ries1) R1b1a1a
    I6492 NE_Iberia_RomP R1b1a1a2a1a2c
    I6491 NE_Iberia_RomP R
    I0070 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1d
    I0073 Minoan_Lasithi J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1a, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1h, J2a1i)
    I9130 Minoan_Odigitria G2a2b2a(xG2a2b2a1b1a2a, G2a2b2a1c1a)
    I9041 Mycenaean J2a1(xJ2a1a, J2a1b1, J2a1b2, J2a1c, J2a1e, J2a1g, J2a1h, J2a1i)

    Quote Originally Posted by Olalde et al. 2019
    In PCA (Fig. 1C-D), most of the individuals from Emp˙ries form two clusters: one (which we call Emp˙ries1) plotting close to the Iron Age Iberia cluster that includes samples from the nearby site of Ullastret and the other (which we call Emp˙ries2) plotting close to Bronze Age samples from the eastern Mediterranean such as the Mycenaean samples from Greece (167).
    Repeating basic facts is indeed stupidifying but it need to be done since retarded people cannot grasp that E is African and that a lion born in a hen house isn't a chicken. It should be easy to grasp that TRUE Greeks and Romans (from the Bronze Age & Iron Age) lacked E-V13, and that therefore it is a foreign marker.

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