Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: 50+ Sicilian MyHeritage Results Spreadsheet with Towns/Provinces of Origin

  1. #1
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America

    50+ Sicilian MyHeritage Results Spreadsheet with Towns/Provinces of Origin

    Decided to make a separate thread for this so it doesn't spill over into the one about ancient DNA. I will continue to add to this:

    SPREADSHEET URL:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...-1I/edit#gid=0

    If you wish for me to begin adding other Italian regions as well as Greeks, please let me know and I may begin to do this. I find MyHeritage to be among the most accurate and most revealing for Sicilians, in fact.

    Overall, what I see is strong evidence of an Aegean and Italic substrate for nearly all Sicilians, showing the omnipresent settlement of Greeks and various assimilated and/or later added layers of Italian settlement, with varying levels of MENA input, most significant in Palermo and dropping to much less significant levels in the Southeast.

    Eastern Sicily observations:

    1. "Italian" is the top score for much of eastern Sicily... all but one of the results from Catania scores "Italian" first, and the Enna and Ragusa results do, too. The one result from the city of Messina, rather than just the province, scores 72% "Italian" also.

    2. The rest of the results from Messina and the one from Syracuse, on the other hand, are scoring almost no "Italian" and instead have very high "Greek." For most Messinese, they also require around 10-20% "Sardinian" to round out their European.

    3. As expected, Syracuse, Enna, and Ragusa have some of the lowest combined "MENA" scores on the island, with the Syracusan in particular being among the lowest on the entire spreadsheet and not scoring any "North African" at all. This should not surprise as direct MENA settlement in these areas was historically very low.

    The best understanding of eastern Sicily is, to me, of a native Italic population showing genetic continuity with people much further north in the Italian Peninsula, who absorbed significant Aegean ancestry, and, with a few exceptions, fairly limited MENA input. Any MENA input, in my view, spilled over from the West of the island and would have arrived much later than it did in the West, and as far as the East of the island goes it would be highest in the mountainous regions of Messina province closer to the border with Palermo province. While the entire eastern coast of Sicily was a very dense settlement area for Greeks, it was also the homeland of the Siculi people, an Italic group from mainland Italy... therefore any remaining ancestry from them may be matching with modern day north-central and central Italians and being read as "Italian."

    Western Sicily observations:

    1. Palermo has some remarkably high outliers for combined "MENA" especially driven by increased "West Asian" which for several individuals exceeds 20%. Two of the people on the chart from this province have "West Asian" as their singular highest score, exceeding their Italian or their Greek. One Palermitan in particular scores above 50% in combined MENA. High scores can be found for both "Italian" and "Greek" although Greece has the edge overall. Palermitans are, perhaps, the most evenly split between Italian, Greek, and MENA.

    2. Agrigento and Trapani lean more heavily toward "Greek" and are less "Italian" than Palermo, with Trapani on average more European than Agrigento. This should make sense if we understand people from Agrigento to be the source population for the Maltese. Agrigento overall have stable, significant levels of MENA, though I do not see as many outliers as Palermo.

    3. One person from Agrigento, the only one I have found from any part of Sicily for whom this applies, scores "Iberian" as their highest score at 31.2%. Could this be related to those ancient populations whom may have had partial Iberian origin?

    I have no results from Caltanissetta.

    What interests me is that any "Italian" scored here is logically post-Crusades, as there was never a native Italic population in western Sicily and the region was partially repopulated by mainland Italians during Norman rule. Therefore, we can conclude that before repopulation, Palermitans especially would have been overwhelmingly shifted toward MENAs. The Hellenization of western Sicily apparently did lead to genetic exchange between the Greeks and Punic populations, with the Greek input, overall, dominating. But when we see inflated combined MENA scores for western Sicily, it clearly means that a significant part of their ancestry cannot be read as either "Italian" "Greek" "Sardinian nor "Iberian" and indeed over half of both Palermo and Agrigento samples exceed 30%+ combined MENA, this is not the case for the other regions on average.

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     Defski (07-14-2019),  digital_noise (03-31-2019),  JMcB (03-31-2019),  Nibelung (03-31-2019),  Seabass (04-19-2020)

  3. #2
    Banned
    Posts
    521
    Sex
    Location
    NYC
    Ethnicity
    Semi-Synthetic Scandi
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    N-Z1936 (Z1927)
    mtDNA (M)
    H1h
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Z56 (Y60904)
    mtDNA (P)
    French, I think

    Norway United Kingdom Germany Italy Ethiopia
    Nice! And not that it's a requirement, but I see you've found a couple of Palermo province individuals at 13% NW European. Are these similar to the Trapani Normanesques (in the Sicilian context no offence meant) you've mentioned before?

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Nibelung For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (03-31-2019),  Sikeliot (03-31-2019)

  5. #3
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    After averaging for each part of the island I can say conclusively that the most distinctive areas are as follows:

    Higher average Italian than Greek: Catania, Enna, Ragusa --> ancient Sicels/Siculi impact?
    High MENA outliers: Palermo, Trapani, Agrigento --> Punic/Arab/Berber and/or Elymian?
    Low average MENA: Enna, Ragusa, Syracuse --> This makes sense, these regions were never settled en masse by MENAs.

    Many of my Messina samples are from Alcara li Fusi, a town that was founded under Arab rule which is likely unrepresentative for the province as a whole. If some of these were removed, the MENA average would drop right down to Enna/Syracuse/Ragusa levels, in which case Catania remains the only East Sicilian province scoring West Sicilian levels of MENA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nibelung View Post
    Nice! And not that it's a requirement, but I see you've found a couple of Palermo province individuals at 13% NW European. Are these similar to the Trapani Normanesques (in the Sicilian context no offence meant) you've mentioned before?
    They are outliers but yes, I would not discount this possibility, though as we have someone from Enna scoring similarly being from an area with Gallo-Italic settlement, it could be from North Italians, not Normans.

    Interestingly in my spreadsheet I don't find Trapani to differ from the rest of western Sicily. The big differences are in parts of eastern Sicily.

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (03-31-2019),  Nibelung (03-31-2019)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    524
    Sex
    Location
    0114
    Ethnicity
    Celto-Germanic
    Nationality
    English
    Y-DNA (P)
    Possibly R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H1a3a1

    England North of England Ireland Scotland Germany Romani Star of David
    It's well known that Italian and Jewish genes often overlap, so the Ashkenazi and North African Jewish results aren't surprising.

    However, some of them are VERY Jewish-shifted- take the person from Agrigento who scores nearly a quarter North African Jewish! Surely these people with such high scores have a legitimate Jewish ancestor somewhere down the line (as this is Sicily, this is unsurprising). However, Myheritage needs a lot of work done.
    Last edited by mildlycurly; 03-31-2019 at 07:29 PM.
    Target: mildlycurly_scaled
    Distance: 1.3578% / 0.01357814
    57.0 Irish
    37.6 English
    2.6 Roma_Barcelona
    1.8 Ashkenazi_Germany
    1.0 Roma_Granada


    Current research interest(s): The Viscontis of Milan

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to mildlycurly For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (03-31-2019),  Sikeliot (03-31-2019)

  9. #5
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by mildlycurly View Post
    It's well known that Italian and Jewish genes often overlap, so the Ashkenazi and North African Jewish results aren't surprising.

    However, some of them are VERY Jewish-shifted- take the person from Agrigento who scores nearly a quarter North African Jewish! Surely these people with such high scores have a legitimate Jewish ancestor somewhere down the line (as this is Sicily, this is unsurprising).
    I think there is North African and Levantine being hidden in that North African Jewish cluster, which includes Jews from Libya all the way to Morocco. It might signal Punic ancestry in some way, though as we know some North African Jews have Iberian/Italic like ancestry also and as such this cluster might be arising by chance, by sucking up both Punic, Berber, and native Sicilian ancestry. It is quite interesting how this component has far higher outliers than the Ashkenazi one, and is more common in western Sicily rather than east.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (03-31-2019)

  11. #6
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    Updates:

    3 Palermitans have been added, one with a 55/45 split of Euro/MENA from Cinisi and Termini Imerese (Greek > Italian), and another who is 80/20 Europe/MENA from Cinisi and Balestrate (Italian > Greek), and finally one with a 65/35 Euro/MENA split whose highest European component is Greek, but has 13% NW European!

    2 East Sicilians have been added: one Messinese, with 64.6% Italian, no Greek(!) and the rest MENA. The other is from Modica, Ragusa and has an 80/20 Euro/MENA split, and their highest European component is also Italian.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-01-2019),  Nibelung (03-31-2019)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,898
    Sex
    Location
    Bay Area
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-BY14160
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c
    mtDNA (P)
    I1a1

    Germany Italy Sweden Netherlands
    Not that I can add much to the conversation but between various uploads to MH, I have seen 25% Greek and 5% Italian to 15% for Greek and 15% Italian. My Aunt on the other had gets 27% Balkan and 36% Italian. Its confusing when you are dealing with people of partial SE Euro ethnicity.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to digital_noise For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-01-2019)

  15. #8
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    Not that I can add much to the conversation but between various uploads to MH, I have seen 25% Greek and 5% Italian to 15% for Greek and 15% Italian. My Aunt on the other had gets 27% Balkan and 36% Italian. Its confusing when you are dealing with people of partial SE Euro ethnicity.
    Are you suggesting there is overlap between the "Italian" and "Greek" components? I wondered this since I have seen Aegean islanders scoring significant Italian, too.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-01-2019)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    501
    Location
    Florida Native
    Ethnicity
    Greek Peloponnese
    Nationality
    US since the 1890's
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2A2A

    It seems that on 23 and me there is a significant Greek Island/Sicilian-Italian overlap. My first cousin (shared maternal ancestry) is half Island Greek (Samos) and scores 30% Italian compared to mine which is 8% (full mainland Greek).

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TonyC For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-01-2019),  Sikeliot (04-01-2019)

  19. #10
    Banned
    Posts
    4,342
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a1a
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
    It seems that on 23 and me there is a significant Greek Island/Sicilian-Italian overlap. My first cousin (shared maternal ancestry) is half Island Greek (Samos) and scores 30% Italian compared to mine which is 8% (full mainland Greek).
    The same is true for Myheritage for many, so I am now wondering if we shouldn't assume "Italian" could not be partially from Greek ancestors also.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Sikeliot For This Useful Post:

     JMcB (04-01-2019)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 25
    Last Post: 05-27-2020, 03:18 PM
  2. Replies: 42
    Last Post: 10-15-2019, 09:48 PM
  3. Sicilian GEDmatch results, all calculators
    By Sikeliot in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 90
    Last Post: 02-06-2018, 03:21 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-14-2017, 06:26 PM
  5. Your myheritage.com surname origin by country
    By shazou in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-27-2015, 11:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •