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Thread: Help with English genealogy.

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Edema is often associated with people who have heart health problems - with the heart pumping more feebly.
    Modern treatment may include diuretics to get rid of excess liquid.

    I seem to recall some characters in literature looking puffy - "dropsical" - not long before they died of heart attack.
    Many people used to be said to have died of dropsy, (on death certificates as well as by ordinary persons) but this was just a symptom of the underlying condition.
    This condition is nightmare fuel, to be honest, but I must ask you if this health issue is something a man of around 40 years old would be subject to or is it more common in people of an older age group?

    I'm also wondering, if a woman had a child out of wedlock (which Johns wife, Rebecca, appears to have had a year before their marriage) would there have been a social stigma attached? Perhaps giving a 20 year old woman fewer options in a mate (I know it's very unlikely that John was actually born in 1775 but his burial record also states that age although I'm unsure if they used the same information from the death register)?
    Last edited by BackToTheForests; 03-13-2019 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackToTheForests View Post
    A question about parish burials, is the age listed more accurate than the death registration or is the same information going to be used on both?
    That would depend on who was providing the information in each case. If it is the same person, they would presumably provide the same information. Parish registers do not always list the age at death, and when they do, it's not always accurate. It's also possible that the person who died did not know exactly how old they were, especially if they were elderly.

    The death certificate for my great-grandmother lists Holland as her country of birth. She was actually born in Sweden. Obviously whoever (her son in law IIRC) provided that information wasn't very well informed.
    Last edited by GoldenHind; 03-13-2019 at 10:02 PM.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenHind View Post
    That would depend on who was providing the information in each case. If it is the same person, they would presumably provide the same information. Parish registers do not always list the age at death, and when they do, it's not always accurate. It's also possible that the person who died did not know exactly how old they were, especially if they were elderly.

    The death certificate for my great-grandmother lists Holland as her country of birth. She was actually born in Sweden. Obviously whoever (her son in law IIRC) provided that information wasn't very well informed.
    Thanks, unfortunately according to this:

    Screen Shot 2019-03-13 at 7.01.12 PM.png

    His information was given by his daughter, Dorothy. Dorothy was approximately five years old at the time of Johns death. This is one of the main reasons that I believe his birthdate to be false, among the fact that he would have been having children into his sixties. Here is his parish burial record:

    Screen Shot 2019-03-13 at 7.01.27 PM.png

    The age is the same but now I'm wondering why they would have used the same age when at the time of burial another family member, even Johns wife, could have easily given the correct information. I wonder if there is a way to find out who supplied the information for burial or if they simply copied from the death register. What a headache!

  5. #24
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    I wouldn't rule out the John baptised in Kings Bromley in 1777. I'm not seeing anyone clearly him in the census, although granted I'm sure you've looked much more closely.

    What I would do is start with John Sanders/Saunders born between about 1770 through 1800 in Kings Bromley and identify the parents and then identify other children they had. I'd move outward, but focus first on the closest parishes, maybe focusing on those within the Lichfield Diocese. You know at least some people seem to have moved from Enville to Kings Bromley, for example.

    The idea is to try to find some kind of pattern.

    There don't seem to be a lot of Saunders/Sanders in Kings Bromley, so that's helpful.

    I'd do the same thing with Rebecca's family.

    One possible explanation for him marrying at 42 would be a prior wife who died leaving him with children, but I don't see any possible marriage records for the 1777 Jhn in Kings Bromley, at least. But just in case I'd search for deaths of female Sanders not too long before the marriage. I think it's less likely here, though, just because based on the baptism date of their son John Rebecca seems to have been pregnant when they married, but worth checking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msmarjoribanks View Post
    I wouldn't rule out the John baptised in Kings Bromley in 1777. I'm not seeing anyone clearly him in the census, although granted I'm sure you've looked much more closely.

    What I would do is start with John Sanders/Saunders born between about 1770 through 1800 in Kings Bromley and identify the parents and then identify other children they had. I'd move outward, but focus first on the closest parishes, maybe focusing on those within the Lichfield Diocese. You know at least some people seem to have moved from Enville to Kings Bromley, for example.

    The idea is to try to find some kind of pattern.

    There don't seem to be a lot of Saunders/Sanders in Kings Bromley, so that's helpful.

    I'd do the same thing with Rebecca's family.

    One possible explanation for him marrying at 42 would be a prior wife who died leaving him with children, but I don't see any possible marriage records for the 1777 Jhn in Kings Bromley, at least. But just in case I'd search for deaths of female Sanders not too long before the marriage. I think it's less likely here, though, just because based on the baptism date of their son John Rebecca seems to have been pregnant when they married, but worth checking.
    Thank you, great advice and you've just made something click for me...I've found a Hannah Saunders, born 1779 and died in 1815, buried in Kings Bromley. Now, I believe Hannah married the John born in 1777, Kings Bromley, giving birth to Joseph and Thomas. When I was looking through the 1841 Kings Bromley census I found a William Sanders, b.1781 (he died in 1867, Kings Bromley), he's son of John and Elizabeth and his brother is John (1777, Kings Bromley). I know I'm making a leap but could John be Thomas and Josephs father?

    And, yes, the John b.1777 in KB is the only one I haven't been able to find on census, there was one I had thought was him but the transcription was simply wrong (it stated 1776 but when I looked at the image it put his birth 1796). Rebecca is a whole other can of worms, I've nearly had arguments with my cousins over the accuracy of her part of the tree. Never could find a birth record for her in Hill Ridware (her supposed place of birth, a cousin has even gone out there and was unable to find any record). I've found a record that would match up for her right in Ilkeston, Derbyshire. the name on that is Rebekah Dodson, born 1801. Now, with what has been said over a spouse potentially lying about a birthplace to avoid tax, it would make sense that she would say Hill Ridware was her place of birth since there is a prominent Dudson family there. It's a lot to think about.

    Edit: Rebecca had a son named William in 1817, he died the same year.
    Screen Shot 2019-03-14 at 11.17.05 AM.png

    Screen Shot 2019-03-14 at 11.26.03 AM.png
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    Last edited by BackToTheForests; 03-14-2019 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Added a ton of things

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    Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, my great grandfather of the same line had gone through a similar scenario. He was born in 1864, married and had children in England, they came to the US where his wife died and he met my great grandmother, he had his last child in 1916.

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    I looked back at Johns marriage banns with Rebecca to make sure it did not say John was a "bachelor", as that would kill my theory pretty quick. It does not say "bachelor" but does not say "widower" either.

    Screen Shot 2019-03-14 at 11.41.34 AM.png

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judith View Post
    Just for fun my GEDmatch no with most BoT is T212910, perhaps we share a little?
    Quote Originally Posted by BackToTheForests View Post
    My kit is M814467 if anyone would like to try.
    You actually both match my dad but it's only a small amount. There's 7.3 cM shared with BackToTheForests and 7.7 cM with Judith. I'm sure we'll never know where that connection might be but it's fun to see.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Paternal ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    Father's mtDNA: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon (H27e)
    Maternal ancestor (mt): McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    Paternal great grandfather (mt): Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by FionnSneachta View Post
    You actually both match my dad but it's only a small amount. There's 7.3 cM shared with BackToTheForests and 7.7 cM with Judith. I'm sure we'll never know where that connection might be but it's fun to see.
    I love finding even the small connections! I wonder if it's through my mother or father (or both)? Just for giggles: MB4123081 and M529259

    So I've made, possibly, a breakthrough on the marriage of John and Hannah. John Saunders married Hannah Dagley 24 November 1800 in Alrewas, Staffordshire, just a few miles from Kings Bromley. I'm going to play around with the idea that my John is also the father of Thomas and Joseph. It seems to fit very well, his widow living so close to them and their uncle William Saunders, the parish burial record stating Johns birth as abt. 1775, as well as everything I have mentioned above...Very circumstantial evidence but the pieces are falling into place so nicely. I never in a million years would have considered this as a possibility if it wasn't mentioned in this thread. I'll see if this leads anywhere, thanks to everyone and any criticisms and ideas are welcomed/needed!
    Last edited by BackToTheForests; 03-14-2019 at 09:57 PM.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by BackToTheForests View Post
    I love finding even the small connections! I wonder if it's through my mother or father (or both)? Just for giggles: MB4123081 and M529259
    It seems to be your mother MB4123081 sharing 7.4 cM. However, your mum matches my dad on chromosome 5 (172,769,501 - 174,965,974) while you match my dad on chromosome 10 (115,779,717 - 120,142,022). If I reduce the parameters for matching with your mum, she does also match my dad on chromosome 10 sharing 6.2 cM (115,021,578 - 119,197,977) which covers the majority of the shared segment that my dad has with you.
    Ancestry: Ireland (Paper trail ≅ 81.25% Roscommon, 12.5% Galway, 6.25% Mayo)
    Paternal ancestor (Y): Kelly b. c1830 in Co. Roscommon (Uí Maine)
    Father's mtDNA: Fleming b. c1831 in Co. Roscommon (H27e)
    Maternal ancestor (mt): McDermott b. c1814 in Co. Roscommon
    Paternal great grandfather (mt): Connella b. c1798 in Co. Roscommon (T2a1a8)

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