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Thread: 1% Burusho in Ancestry from British person, just noise?

  1. #11
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    I think it seems to be related with WSHG which the burusho has. Modern English people has neolithic lake baikal HG admixture.


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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    Yes that's what I initially thought, although I think it's maybe more talking about a region like England, Wales Northwestern Europe? It does seem unusual to get results from a population where their 'villages lie at elevations of 9,000 feet, surrounded by the ice fields and towering peaks of the Karakoram Mountains', but like other regions it shows a whole area that covers parts of kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, China, Afghanistan, Nepal and India so it could very well be showing some Romani inheritance.

    You have to consider historical migration into UK aswel which can be split up into modern post 1800s and more ancient with the Jews in 1000ad, Romas 1500 and Laskhars 1800 century. With also some merchant traders form middle-east during times of Queen Elizabeths reign. Don't know at what point a Burusho migrant in that timeframe would decide to travel to the UK, but not all migrations can surely be accounted for. Methods of transport would have surely caused limitations in mobility for a large percent of the population during many of these time periods as well.

    Well the romani haplogroup I think is a H one and I don't have that as I have R1a, but that doesn't mean I still couldn' have romani ancestry or some other heritage that is from said region.
    Burusho is very isolated group, but yes somewhere from central asia is a possible one as they were pastoralist at one point.. maybe that what it could be representing. thing is Asians too have a steppe ancestry, so maybe that is the ancient connection with the european? There is alot of R1a in Asia especially within subcontinent but not too sure about the deep ancestry of the subclade.

    btw wasnt saying you dont have the ancestry at all i was saying its most likely to have come from punjab or rajasthan (majority of the Romani ive come across get this area in their ancestries). I cant say much further other than this they maybe others who are more knowledgable than me, but ive just put my input to what I know
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  5. #13
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    Such a minor percentage of anything can be discounted as noise in situations where it makes little to no sense. Considering your heritage and overwhelming Northwest European score this is probably one of those situations where the algorithm tripped over itself. The most logical explanation for a European to score such a component would be distant gypsy ancestry, but you scored no Balkan or Middle Eastern in your test so this is unlikely to be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber29 View Post
    burusho people arent romani they are a small group of tribal people so doubt any mixing took place?, as far as im aware (unless someone can explain it better) if its romani its within Rajasthan, Punjab area most likely - could even be haplogroup related maybe?
    There were some ancestors of the Romani / Roma who are thought to have migrated out via a northerly route, possibly via Hunza. If that happened, then there is a possibility some Burusho people joined them going out. I am only mentioning it, I have no idea if OP's 1% Burusho indicates real Burusho ancestry.

    Also there are some Dom people still living in Hunza, but it is possible they might have come later after the time of Roma ancestors, or maybe they have been there from the time of the Roma ancestors? I don't know.

    https://pamirtimes.net/2011/04/01/do...nishing-voice/
    One of the moribund languages in Pakistan is Domaaki of Hunza. According to Georg Buddruss, Domaaki “originally belonged to the so-called ‘Central Group’ of Indo-Aryan languages somewhere south of Kashmir”. Previously this language was spoken by Doms (Domaaki speakers) inhabiting different regions of Gilgit-Baltistan. Now the speakers of this language reside in Mominabad (erstwhile Bayrishal) village in Hunza. Domaaki people worked as musicians and blacksmiths for centuries. (Even today, many musicians in the Punjab are referred to as “dom” or “doom”.) They are the repositories of indigenous music, engineering and crafts, but they have been treated as pariahs in our caste society.

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....umaki_djvu.txt
    "The Dumaki Language" Dumaki is the language of the Doma, to use their own name for themselves, or the Bericho, as they are called by their neighbours, a small body of aliens settled among the Burushaski-speaking Burusho of Hunza and Nagar.

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....umaki_djvu.txt
    Domari (also Dom or Domi ) is the language of the Dom minority of Palestine/Israel and Jordan. The origin of the group appears to be in an Indian caste of nomadic service providers, who specialised in trades such as metalwork and entertainment. The name dom is cognate with those of the řom (Roma or Romanies) of Europe and the lom of the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, both of which are Indian diasporas living outside the Indian subcontinent and specialising, traditionally or historically, in similar trades, as well as with the names of the ḍum of the Hunza valley, and indeed the ḍ om of India itself, who are similarly known as low-caste commercial nomads

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    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-13-2019 at 09:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    There were some ancestors of the Romani / Roma who are thought to have migrated out via a northerly route, possibly via Hunza. If that happened, then there is a possibility some Burusho people joined them going out. I am only mentioning it, I have no idea if OP's 1% Burusho indicates real Burusho ancestry.

    Also there are some Dom people still living in Hunza, but it is possible they might have come later after the time of Roma ancestors, or maybe they have been there from the time of the Roma ancestors? I don't know.

    https://pamirtimes.net/2011/04/01/do...nishing-voice/
    One of the moribund languages in Pakistan is Domaaki of Hunza. According to Georg Buddruss, Domaaki “originally belonged to the so-called ‘Central Group’ of Indo-Aryan languages somewhere south of Kashmir”. Previously this language was spoken by Doms (Domaaki speakers) inhabiting different regions of Gilgit-Baltistan. Now the speakers of this language reside in Mominabad (erstwhile Bayrishal) village in Hunza. Domaaki people worked as musicians and blacksmiths for centuries. (Even today, many musicians in the Punjab are referred to as “dom” or “doom”.) They are the repositories of indigenous music, engineering and crafts, but they have been treated as pariahs in our caste society.

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....umaki_djvu.txt
    "The Dumaki Language" Dumaki is the language of the Doma, to use their own name for themselves, or the Bericho, as they are called by their neighbours, a small body of aliens settled among the Burushaski-speaking Burusho of Hunza and Nagar.

    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....umaki_djvu.txt
    Domari (also Dom or Domi ) is the language of the Dom minority of Palestine/Israel and Jordan. The origin of the group appears to be in an Indian caste of nomadic service providers, who specialised in trades such as metalwork and entertainment. The name dom is cognate with those of the řom (Roma or Romanies) of Europe and the lom of the Caucasus and eastern Anatolia, both of which are Indian diasporas living outside the Indian subcontinent and specialising, traditionally or historically, in similar trades, as well as with the names of the ḍum of the Hunza valley, and indeed the ḍ om of India itself, who are similarly known as low-caste commercial nomads
    Interesting i know the central asian mixing must have happened but to know the burusho since where they live - but if that showed up to me that may have been the in between mixing with how the OP has got it.... so the burusho ancestors have whatever he has?... if its real that is.

    had a read of the links - you learn something new everyday...
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  12. #17
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    I'm no expert, but isn't 1% pretty much the margin of error?
    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA: M5a1a


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA: U7a3a*

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    Yes possibly. I've read the thorough thread about testing for Romani DNA and I understand that admix should consist of balkans, ee and s.a. But this may be arbitrary unless you have matches with romanis either more broadly, or possibly only in the native area you're from. So I'm wondering if there is a data-set of Romanichal gedmatch kits that I could compare my DNA to see if there is any shared dna?

    I don't want to sound like someone on some fruitless and frenzied search here, but I don't think it's fair when people lambast those pursuing these 'ethnic' ties as I wouldn't be doing it unless I had a valid reason.

    For anyone who has some knowledge about romani inheritance. Here's my GEDMATCH kit number:

    A548614
    There is a user here (Evon). He might be able to help you more with this if you contact him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    Yes that's what I initially thought, although I think it's maybe more talking about a region like England, Wales Northwestern Europe? It does seem unusual to get results from a population where their 'villages lie at elevations of 9,000 feet, surrounded by the ice fields and towering peaks of the Karakoram Mountains', but like other regions it shows a whole area that covers parts of kyrgyzstan, Tajikstan, China, Afghanistan, Nepal and India so it could very well be showing some Romani inheritance.

    You have to consider historical migration into UK aswel which can be split up into modern post 1800s and more ancient with the Jews in 1000ad, Romas 1500 and Laskhars 1800 century. With also some merchant traders form middle-east during times of Queen Elizabeths reign. Don't know at what point a Burusho migrant in that timeframe would decide to travel to the UK, but not all migrations can surely be accounted for. Methods of transport would have surely caused limitations in mobility for a large percent of the population during many of these time periods as well.

    Well the romani haplogroup I think is a H one and I don't have that as I have R1a, but that doesn't mean I still couldn' have romani ancestry or some other heritage that is from said region.
    H is their major Indian origin haplogroup, but they also have R1a (the branch found more in South Asia), and they have other South Asia haplogroups also like J and R2 (Sinte Roma).
    Roma R1a-Z93 https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post552777

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by laltota View Post
    H is their major Indian origin haplogroup, but they also have R1a (the branch found more in South Asia), and they have other South Asia haplogroups also like J and R2 (Sinte Roma).
    Roma R1a-Z93 https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post552777
    It's important to note that the R1a found among the Roma in that study specifically came under R1a-M780, which is very clearly a South Asian marker:

    FATHER:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R2a2b1b2a1a1-Y1383* (Y154917-)
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M479 > M124 > P267 > Y12100 > Y8763 > Y8766 > V3714 > SK2142 > Y1377 > Y1379 > Z29271 > Y1383 x Y154917


    mtDNA: M5a1a


    MATERNAL UNCLE:

    Y-DNA (ISOGG 2019): R1b1a1b1b3a-Z2109
    Y-DNA path: M207 > M173 > M343 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > Z2103 > Z2106 > Z2109

    mtDNA: U7a3a*

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  18. #20
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    You will have to help me with that. Is WSHG western hunter gatherers?

    Are you saying that small percentages in an ancestry DNA test result can be as far back as Neolithic times in your DNA? So that 1% is a segment from Dzudzuana or Balkai?

    That’s interesting knowing that it’s generally understood that some of the Hunza population migrated with the romanies.

    I thought Ancestry DNA only really picked up on 5x generations. Obviously, all the modern day populations consist of these ancients, but if you’re looking at modern samples the fractional percentages will be about those rather than the ancients? So a 1% from a modern day population such as Burusho sample might be saying I had a 5th great grandparents or something who was Burusho/Romani. I thought 1% was the cut off for just noise as well. But after the update, the 1% percentages were no longer in the 'this could be noise' section. And i've been reading other forums and some people have been assigning great weight to their small percentages and have found it actually has some relevance.

    Furthermore, whilst I understand the phenotypes can not necessarily be related to genotype, can you get throw backs as far back as this that can appear in your phenotype?I know I might be treading on shaky ground here, but there can be surely some reasonable inference drawn from looking at yourself and discerning where you're ancestors might have lived based on your phenotypical traits.

    I grew up in the Highlands of Scotland, and if there's any place which purports to have a population to be distinctive genetically in looks, that's probably one of them. And I have always been considered somewhat 'other' in that region of the world to most people (used to get called a ‘insert offensive mexican, african terms’..bearing in mind though that on the grand scheme of things i'd probably be considered to have medium toned skin and it was never really serious and more of a jokey thing, but the fact it’s considered ‘jokey’ says something about the culture there) but my DNA appears to be exactly the opposite of being anything exotic. I think regardless of not pandering to racial taxonomy, there does seem to undoubtably be a certain amount of phenotypical traits that are considered within being in the boundaries of being considered ethnically European- Turkey might be considered as being on the fringes of that with their higher admixture of the middle east, and there phenotypes seem to show that. And it makes sense thinking about where they are geographically. Ideally, based on all the peer-reviewed science journals we see about the european caveman and a re-construction of what they looked like, and the media which takes considerable care in presenting a distinctively looking Scotsmen, or Swede etc... shouldn't the phenotypes of people as well as the admixture reflect a very gradual spectrum of differences based on geography? Note- I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with taking pride in your distinctive phenotypical traits. It would be a pretty sad world if there was no diversity. However, i'm not really satisfied with my admixture as there seems to be a bit of a disjuncture between how I ethnically perceive myself looks wise, and how others do, and what the results have come up with. Which is why I believe this Burusho could very well have some relevance. I suppose the other thing to consider is it's likely the media will always have a propensity to choose the people who are more distinctive phenotypically, when stressing the nationality of someone. As these people are like the ones who are meant to embody the distinctive attributes of a nation- 'the cream of the crop'. The rest of us have these features but just in a bit of a more hodgy podgy/ mish mash way with some random stuff thrown in.

    Ofcourse there might be to do with something else, such as the general animosity between scots and English for some parts of the population. And considering I sounded a bit more english and had an english surname. ’Sassenach’ is definitely a term used in the Highlands to describe an Englishman. Obviously considering there history, they arguably have a lot to be pissed off about like the Hunzas and there language being reduced similar to Gaelic in the Highlands.
    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-13-2019 at 10:22 PM.

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