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Thread: 1% Burusho in Ancestry from British person, just noise?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    You will have to help me with that. Is WSHG western hunter gatherers?

    Are you saying that small percentages in an ancestry DNA test result can be as far back as Neolithic times in your DNA? So that 1% is a segment from Dzudzuana or Balkai?

    That’s interesting knowing that it’s generally understood that some of the Hunza population migrated with the romanies.

    I thought Ancestry DNA only really picked up on 5x generations. Obviously, all the modern day populations consist of these ancients, but if you’re looking at modern samples the fractional percentages will be about those rather than the ancients? So a 1% from a modern day population such as Burusho sample might be saying I had a 5th great grandparents or something who was Burusho/Romani. I thought 1% was the cut off for just noise as well. But after the update, the 1% percentages were no longer in the 'this could be noise' section. And i've been reading other forums and some people have been assigning great weight to their small percentages and have found it actually has some relevance.

    Furthermore, whilst I understand the phenotypes can not necessarily be related to genotype, can you get throw backs as far back as this that can appear in your phenotype?I know I might be treading on shaky ground here, but there can be surely some reasonable inference drawn from looking at yourself and discerning where you're ancestors might have lived based on your phenotypical traits.

    I grew up in the Highlands of Scotland, and if there's any place which purports to have a population to be distinctive genetically in looks, that's probably one of them. And I have always been considered somewhat 'other' in that region of the world to most people (used to get called a ‘insert offensive mexican, african terms’..bearing in mind though that on the grand scheme of things i'd probably be considered to have medium toned skin and it was never really serious and more of a jokey thing, but the fact it’s considered ‘jokey’ says something about the culture there) but my DNA appears to be exactly the opposite of being anything exotic. I think regardless of not pandering to racial taxonomy, there does seem to undoubtably be a certain amount of phenotypical traits that are considered within being in the boundaries of being considered ethnically European- Turkey might be considered as being on the fringes of that with their higher admixture of the middle east, and there phenotypes seem to show that. And it makes sense thinking about where they are geographically. Ideally, based on all the peer-reviewed science journals we see about the european caveman and a re-construction of what they looked like, and the media which takes considerable care in presenting a distinctively looking Scotsmen, or Swede etc... shouldn't the phenotypes of people as well as the admixture reflect a very gradual spectrum of differences based on geography? Note- I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with taking pride in your distinctive phenotypical traits. It would be a pretty sad world if there was no diversity. However, i'm not really satisfied with my admixture as there seems to be a bit of a disjuncture between how I ethnically perceive myself looks wise, and how others do, and what the results have come up with. Which is why I believe this Burusho could very well have some relevance. I suppose the other thing to consider is it's likely the media will always have a propensity to choose the people who are more distinctive phenotypically, when stressing the nationality of someone. As these people are like the ones who are meant to embody the distinctive attributes of a nation- 'the cream of the crop'. The rest of us have these features but just in a bit of a more hodgy podgy/ mish mash way with some random stuff thrown in.

    Ofcourse there might be to do with something else, such as the general animosity between scots and English for some parts of the population. And considering I sounded a bit more english and had an english surname. ’Sasaneach’ is definitely a term used in the Highlands to describe an Englishman. Obviously considering there history, they arguably have a lot to be pissed off about like the Hunzas and there language being reduced similar to Gaelic in the Highlands.
    You are massively overthinking this, mate.

    The test predicts that 99% of your ancestry is from the British Isles (many score Swedish because of Viking type ancestry that has been here a long time). You are a Northern European person, and should discount 1% admixtures as either noise or not relevant to your overall autosomal profile. Even if the admixture was real it would not impact the way that you look or your genetics in comparison to other peoples of the Isles. You are of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon origin like the rest of the native folk of this land no matter what you look like or if you perceive yourself as being exotic. All Europeans are comprised mainly of three ancient groups from across the continent; Indo-Europeans, Neolithic Europeans and Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers. The Indo-European groups relevant to you are the Bell Beakers and Corded Ware, both of these peoples were tall and fair much like modern Swedes and Norwegians. The Neolithic European groups were much like modern Sardinian people so shorter and more olive in complexion like Italians, Spaniards and Greeks. The Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers were distant from most populations but in a modern context have the highest correlations with Estonians, Lithuanians and Finns. When you consider that most Europeans are a mixture of these ancient groups in varying percentages it is easy to see how there would exist perfectly natural phenotypical variation within ethnic groups because of how the genes are expressed.

    Edit: The AncestryDNA test does only measure 4 or 5 generations and not all the way back into the Bronze Age/Neolithic. These modern ethnic groups are comprised of the ancient groups though obviously so it gives a good indication of what your ancient ancestry will be like. You are pretty much 100% Isles descent, which basically means you descend primarily from Bell Beaker folk. You're heavily leaning on the Indo-European spectrum like the Germans, Dutch etc.
    Last edited by LTG; 03-13-2019 at 10:51 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Burushos have nothing whatsoever to do with Romanis though? What are you people even talking about?

    Burushos are the local ANE maxima, AFAIK, one of the most ANE shifted folk out there. Hence, I think it may be excess ANE like ancestry pointing to some sort of eastern origin.
    I remember seeing Northern South Asian populations coming up on a Swede's mixed oracles, along with groups like Mansi, etc. I believe the individual had some sort of distant Saami ancestry.

    --

    1% is probably noise though.
    Last edited by client; 03-13-2019 at 10:47 PM.

  4. #23
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    I looked at your kit a little bit in Gedmatch. I wanted to see how your South Asian admixture fit into things. Here are some clippings from Chromosome paintings:

    HobKnobBobSA.png

    There is a bit of a pattern that I can see. The "green" is the South Asian. It seems to be commonly grouped with West Asian (yellow), East Med (olive green), and West Med (brown). They are fairly good groupings. I did some segment searching with Gedmatch to see if I could find someone that matched you in a few of these segments that had more obvious South Asian admixture so a link could be determined, but I didn't find anything. You could do some of that if you want. You would have to pay for a month of elevated access to Gedmatch, but it allows you to poke around. When I am researching something like this, I usually run admixture tests against other kits that match in the same areas and have the same minor admixture that pops up. For example, my mother often tests with minor South Asian, Amerindian, and African admixture. I found that often this admixture was together. I found relatives in one of her lines that had these same combinations from Virginia. Some of them had South Asian admixture as high as 3.5+%, Amerindian admixture as high as 14+%, and African admixture 90+%. The relatives from this same line tended to have these same three non-European admixture types. So, it seems like she maybe had some ancestor from some community of "color" in Virginia when free persons that were mixed like this didn't have too many marital options and married within the group in Colonial USA times. I read a paper on it after I started digging that discussed this topic. I still am not 100% finished with this research, but this approach can be fruitful.

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  6. #24
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    I'm well aware of my predominant composition being from the British Isles, and i'm proud of it. I'm also well aware of the great diversity between European populations in terms of having different phenotypical traits.

    Considering it's picked up 1% from a modern population, what's to say a dominant gene couldn't be expressed in a phenotype? You could just as likely have genotypes from your dominant admixture that don't express themselves but have genotypes from your minor admixture that do express themselves in phenotypes?

    You're making out that i'm lumping all Europeans into one as if they all look the same. But on the contrary, I'm well aware of the abundant differences between how an Italian might look to a Swede, Chezch or Estonian. And being able to do so, is part of what makes up someones ethnicity. We enjoy looking at people aesthetically, and we enjoy the 'nuanced' differences between that very olive skinned Italian to that blonde haired and blue eyed one.

    We also believe we can discern accurately who is considered European and who is considered Chinese or West Asian, and whether someone might have a little bit of this or that etc...The media is all about showing diversity in all it's different forms (visually) so we have a pretty good reference- think of people like Rashida Jones. If you see the countless videos of people posting their DNA results on Youtube as well, there definitely does seem to be some connection between the phenotypes of the individual and the results which they end up getting.

    I just think that maybe my looks may speak of some other influence that doesn't reside in the diverse gene pool of european population.

    It was said in a previous comment that it was 'lore' knowledge that Hunza people may have left with Roma people from Northern Pakistan.

    A user has compared my results to Romani users from the Balkans and there doesn't seem to be any match. But as the go-to guy for romani information on this thread says that Romanichals (british romanis) might not show matches to romanis from different regions because of them reflecting native population.

    When looking at these chromosone painters, is the more colour that covers a part of the segment, the more DNA? Also what is interesting about grouped segments? Is it indicative of a migration pattern that you might inherit wholly in one chunk from an ancestor? Which calc did you use for those results and what chromosones are these grouped segments on?

    For only $10 I might consider doing that as it's a lot cheaper than paying $35 dollar for Ethnogene and it might be more useful.

    Also, am i allowed to post my Gedmatch kit on a forum??
    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-14-2019 at 12:53 AM.

  7. #25
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    With AncestryDNA's speculative update I would not take these small percentages seriously at all, and i'm fairly certain it's just noise. But, if you REALLY want to look into it i'd say test with 23andMe, as they are pretty reliable. If you score 100% Euro on 23andMe you can safely disregard this Burusho percentage on AncestryDNA as noise.

    Also 1% of an ethnicity is absolutely not going to impact your physical appearance or that of your close relatives. I am 10 or so % Sub Saharan African and do not look like i've a drop of it in me.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    When looking at these chromosone painters, is the more colour that covers a part of the segment, the more DNA? Also what is interesting about grouped segments? Is it indicative of a migration pattern that you might inherit wholly in one chunk from an ancestor?

    For only $10 I might consider doing that as it's a lot cheaper than paying $35 dollar for Ethnogene and it might be more useful.
    The more color, the better, I would say. You are just looking for clues. If your minor admixture is just a bunch of short bursts of color in otherwise western European components, then it could be just noisy interpretation by the admixture calculator. If you have long streaks of color or some combination, it may indicate a specific type of ancestor. The question is "how could this combination become part of one person's ancestry?" If the ancestor is recent (and probably already known), you will see long, jagged streaks of color in a sea of the majority ancestry colors. Here is a snippet from someone on Gedmatch that matches my mom (not in a minor admixed area, though, so this is just for illustration):

    examplechromopaint.png

    This person is mostly common European colors in this calculator (red, orange, yellow, and brown), but is almost 1/5 Amerindian (dark blue), over 4% African (peach and lavender), and has lots of South Asian (green), Siberian (teal), and East Asian (light blue). This person matches lots of persons with Spanish surnames. So, my best guess is the person is Hispanic. I don't have any indication in my mother's family tree that she has Hispanic ancestry. But, if my mother matched this person on several of these mixed segments (you can compare individual chromosomes in Gedmatch, too), I would suspect that she did, though. As it is, the matches are almost entirely European:

    examplechromopaint2.png

    The first one is my mom, the second her match, and the third the comparison between the two matching segments with the black standing for non-matching admixture. As you can see, this matching part looks pretty European. There is some very small matching of Amerindian admixture, but it is pretty small and could be noise. It certainly isn't a good answer for my mom's actual mixed segments, which are on other locations.

    So, in your case, you would want to see if you can find others that match you in one of your mixed segments and in the same admixed areas showing that it isn't just a European match. Then, you have to hope maybe they have even "more" of the non-European stuff and have some clue as to why. Maybe they will have their family tree posted up or have a haplotype that reveals background or something else. Or, you could always send that person an email and ask if they know why.

    Of course, you may do lots of legwork and end up determining it is just noise, too. You don't really know where you will end up. It certainly is easier to repeat the "it is noise" meme and you would get lots of support from others for saying it. But, I have run into some fairly-definite answers and possible answers this way.
    Last edited by randwulf; 03-14-2019 at 03:46 AM.

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  10. #27
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    Hey, thanks for all the very useful information.

    I'm going to try doing this with a few samples first and then try it with the matching segments tool. I found this article helpful too http://whoareyoumadeof.com/blog/2017...egment-search/ It definitely makes the process a lot more easier using the segment tool as it will show you a big list of all your matches and the segment of DNA where you match with them. You can then isolate certain groups of people who may all descend from one part of your family tree and then do more of the refined analysis of each individual after.

    I think my 18th Chromosone has the longest streaks of South Asian ancestry and others, so that might be a good place to start



    EDIT: I now see that there seems to be this general flucuation of small percentages of West Asian, S.A etc...by 1-4% between the majority of my matches. So it does make me wonder whether these are just percentages picked up from more ancient DNA and don't necessarily speak of recent ancestry from these places.

    Great tool! had GEDMATCH for ages but didn't realise you could do a lot more with it!
    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-14-2019 at 04:13 AM.

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  12. #28
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    -------
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-14-2019 at 03:40 AM.

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobknobbob12 View Post
    -------
    Just a note - your picture looks like it is from the Harappa calculator, which does a good admixture evaluation. But, I wouldn't recommend basing any of your research on its Baloch component as western Europeans usually have lots of it. The S-Indian component is more like other calculators South Asian component with reference to western Europeans. All of my screen shots in this thread were from Eurogenes K13, by the way.

  15. #30
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    Yeah I'm aware of the big amounts of Baloch for European population. I took away the comment underneath the picture because I wanted to do a bit more tests to get a better feel for it and also it raised a number of things.

    The screenshot is a comparison I did with someone who has 20% caucasian in comparison to my 6%. On oracle they came up as sephardic Jewish, Italian, and Tuscan.
    I initially thought this might indicate some middle eastern heritage, but I found in spreadsheet that 20% caucasian is actually the average for Italians.

    Aswell as this, the person also shares the same NE european DNA as me. So that's the issue I felt came up. If you match someone else with not just one other admixture like NE europe, but three others. Then the actual admix you share through an ancestor may be only from one of these admixtures. So this person may have a shared NE cousin with me and the other admix's I share don't necessarily indicate a shared ancestor. That 6% caucasian might not be from them, but is just generally shared admixture from that region.

    For example, if I pick a sample who isn't related to me and do a chromosome painter comparison then it's going to to show the shared admixture we share despite that admixture sharing not have any centigroms.



    EDIT:


    Okay, so I looked at which part of the chromosone we share centigroms and it is on chromoson 20 between 52,728,945 56,548,520. How do I then identify where that is when looking at admix chromosone painter on the one chromosone?


    EDIT: It shows this


    Screen Shot 2019-03-14 at 13.03.01.png


    So I can probably safely assume that this person with their component of Caucasian, is not likely to be shared through an ancestor but it's the Atlantic/ NE admix. Cool stuff! (Actually chromosone 1 I tested but the same principle still applies, as similar outcome on chromosone 20)
    Last edited by Hobknobbob12; 03-14-2019 at 01:07 PM.

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