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Thread: African sailors aboard Henry VIIIís warship reveal hidden diversity of Tudor England

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saetro View Post
    Well yeah, it was. But not in the way we mean today.
    There were successive waves of invaders from Roman times through to the Normans.
    Romans, Irish (we keep forgetting they invaded western British shores at the end of Roman times), Angles/Saxons/Jutes, Danish Vikings on one side and Norse on the other followed by Norman French - all brought different customs and language.
    You may think, for example, the Irish invasion was tiny - but its cultural effect was large.
    They introduced Christianity to much of Britain. (Not to mention parts of Germany and some of Scandinavia.)

    Changes were not sudden and overwhelming, so different cultures and practices existed side-by-side for quite some time.
    Histories may say "so and so came and everybody changed overnight", but if there are accounts of people in the area later, they usually say things like - "away from the towns people still keep to the old ways".
    Or the newcomers were largely a ruler overclass who long resisted mixing with and marrying those they had conquered.
    It's not "multicultural" in the sense of people appreciating and accepting different ways of thought within one place.
    But it is in the sense of different cultures existing on the same island at the same time.
    And rubbing up against each other in some places.

    Later, there were differences within what had become relatively homogeneous - on the basis of religious thought and belief.
    Without even getting to class divisions - that for much of history amounted to parallel cultures.

    You don't have to have colour involved to be multicultural.
    I grew up in an all-European descent household of two cultures from different parts of Europe.
    With two languages spoken, two different flavours of religion, city ideas versus country ideas, different food preferences and recipes and so on.
    That was multicultural too.

    I also hate misrepresentation of what happened in history.
    I spent 90 minutes last night informing people of the truth existing behind some TV ads and sensationalist reporting.
    Entirely different topic. Same passion.
    Agreed. Multiculturalism is often perceived as Multiracialism

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    A lot of focus is being placed on the term multiculturalism when the word is used once only in the article.

    The actual quote from the head researcher is about diversity and globalisation in Tudor England based on the analysis of crew members from the Mary Rose.

    Given that two out of eight analysed sailors are supposedly from the Mediterranean and two of North African heritage, diversity is quite an appropriate term.

    Especially because one of the sailors is documented as being born and bred locally in England but of North African heritage, possibly only one parent.

    Much more relevant than just some 'random foreigners' on a ship.

    While the chemical content of his bones suggested this crew member had been born and raised in Britain, genetic analysis suggested his heritage came from much further afield.

    DNA extracted from the man’s tooth revealed he was genetically similar to modern-day north Africans, implying at least one of his parents hailed from Morocco or Algeria.
    The whole discussion of multiculturalism vs multiracial society in history probably isn't appropriate outside of the vault, but suffice it to say, the prayer book rebellion, pre expulsion Jews, eventually the Hugeuenots etc all suggest the presence of communities and other cultures / languages in England in those periods.

    From my reading of the article, I don't think the author is implying multiculturalism was present back then as it is now.

    So everyone's own agenda and prisms aside, it's highlighting a rather special finding of a local born sailor with foreign heritage. I find that interesting and look forward to the details of the study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    A lot of focus is being placed on the term multiculturalism when the word is used once only in the article.

    The actual quote from the head researcher is about diversity and globalisation in Tudor England based on the analysis of crew members from the Mary Rose.

    Given that two out of eight analysed sailors are supposedly from the Mediterranean and two of North African heritage, diversity is quite an appropriate term.

    Especially because one of the sailors is documented as being born and bred locally in England but of North African heritage, possibly only one parent.

    Much more relevant than just some 'random foreigners' on a ship.



    The whole discussion of multiculturalism vs multiracial society in history probably isn't appropriate outside of the vault, but suffice it to say, the prayer book rebellion, pre expulsion Jews, eventually the Hugeuenots etc all suggest the presence of communities and other cultures / languages in England in those periods.

    From my reading of the article, I don't think the author is implying multiculturalism was present back then as it is now.

    So everyone's own agenda and prisms aside, it's highlighting a rather special finding of a local born sailor with foreign heritage. I find that interesting and look forward to the details of the study.
    But surely that is the whole point? To find any person of foreign heritage in a location that was a main military port, serving on a ship shouldn't be considered exceptional. The fact that one may have been raised in England isn't greatly surprising either, unless we can be sure he was from the hinterland. What the tests specifically don't tell us is the man's culture, only his ethnicity.

    As your statements suggest, no European country was disconnected from its known world by the time of Henry VIII. It wasn't even disconnected at a much earlier date either, for that matter. As for multiculturalism, what does it mean anyway? Given that the majority of people probably didn't brush shoulders with any other cultures in their everyday lives in Tudor England, certainly outside cities, the term isn't really appropriate to use as it is inevitable that it will be construed as having the same meaning as we give it today. I think the journalist was very much implying multiculturalism in the modern sense, was with us in those days based on the study, as opposed to saying men of other ethnicities were found to have served on the Mary Rose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by firemonkey View Post
    New evidence has revealed Heny VIII’s famous warship was a true melting pot, including sailors from mainland Europe and possibly as far afield as North Africa.

    The findings, based on skeletons salvaged from the wreck of the Mary Rose, are the latest to reveal the multicultural nature of Tudor England.

    Analysis of eight sailors who died fighting the French reveals two came from the Mediterranean, while another two could trace their origins to Africa.






    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...-a8822546.html
    I read this article yesterday by chance:

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...rican-heritage

    and suddenly I remembered your thread!
    very interesting

    (ę Dr Onyeka Nubia, the author of Blackamoores, a book about Africans in Tudor England ę )

    ę Nubia cautioned that the proportion of those onboard the Mary Rose that had heritage beyond British shores was not necessarily representative of the whole of England at the time. Nonetheless, he said the findings of a diverse crew supported a wealth of evidence that the country was home to people of many ethnicities. Ľ

    “This is not a one-off thing,” he said.
    Last edited by Trelvern; 03-15-2019 at 10:03 PM.

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    Ah, there's always been multiculturalism in Britain. Celts and Romans. Anglo-Saxons and Britons. Vikings and not-so-Vikings. Normans and Saxons. Irish Gaels and Planters. Highlanders and Lowlanders. English and Welsh. Admittedly not perhaps the poster children for multiculturalism.

    Elizabeth I complained in a well-known proclamation about how there were too many 'blackmoores' in England; apparently there was kind of fashion among the upper classes for having black servants and musicians. There were also a number of well-known Italians, who were considered very cool kids at the time, but also got hassled relentlessly because they were not only foreign but Catholic and hence probably spies or something. And some of them probably were....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Elizabeth I complained in a well-known proclamation about how there were too many 'blackmoores' in England; apparently there was kind of fashion among the upper classes for having black servants and musicians. There were also a number of well-known Italians, who were considered very cool kids at the time,
    So much so, that some locals felt that you might need an Italian name to be taken seriously as a musician.
    For example, John Cooper became Giovanni Coperario.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cooper_(composer)

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