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Thread: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by r_r_abril View Post
    This is not an uncommon phenomenon in history.

    Both in Russia and in Bulgaria, the Scandinavian and Turkic elites adopted the language of their Slavic subjects.
    That's totally another story.
    Both in Russia and in Bulgaria vast majority of Y-chromosomes are Slavic.
    In case of Basque almost 100% of Y-chromosomes were replaced, but the language was not.

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    Sampling the territory of the present day Basque autonomous community to know about the origin of the Basques makes as much sense as sampling Iron Age Norfolk to learn about the Angles. I think most of the answers to our questions will only come from Gascony. The French Basque country would be a start.

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  5. #73
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    So, I gather this paper confirms that beaker brought DF27 to Iberia with no U152 or L21. Once thing clear about beaker P312 main subclade divisions is they were apparent from the start. So the very geographically pronounced differences are due to founder effects, not bottlenecks. P312 seems to have had a tendency to founder effects. Founder effects imply either very small splinter clans settling these areas or that geographical patterning had already formed on the continent by 2450BC - i.e. DF27 ruled the roost on some crucial route to Iberia and L21 ruled some crucial crossing to the isles. If the latter was true then L21 must have dominated the channel crossing zone between the Rhine and Calais but what about DF27? What pre-Iberia position was it in that made it the one of the three major subclades that made it into Iberia in the beaker era? I tend to think DF27 got its hands on the already active Iberia-SE France route at the France end i.e the Rhone. They could then have followed the pre-existing Iberian type beaker route back into Iberia. If a group used the Rhone then my guess is they originated in the middle stretch of the Rhine. If you look at the earliest road network we have knowledge of - the Roman one - then a route for DF27 coming from the middle Rhine to the Rhone, along the Med. to Iberia looks most likely. This is different from the later beaker group who took Sion. If you look at the Roman routes into Sion a route from Bavaria using the upper Rhine makes great sense. They seem likely to have been U152. However, if you use the same method to work out the direction the P312 beaker folk might have made it to the Rhone, then IMO it points to the middle Rhine area. That might have been their location c. 2500BC before a move towards Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    So, I gather this paper confirms that beaker brought DF27 to Iberia with no U152 or L21. Once thing clear about beaker P312 main subclade divisions is they were apparent from the start. So the very geographically pronounced differences are due to founder effects, not bottlenecks. P312 seems to have had a tendency to founder effects. Founder effects imply either very small splinter clans settling these areas or that geographical patterning had already formed on the continent by 2450BC - i.e. DF27 ruled the roost on some crucial route to Iberia and L21 ruled some crucial crossing to the isles. If the latter was true then L21 must have dominated the channel crossing zone between the Rhine and Calais but what about DF27? What pre-Iberia position was it in that made it the one of the three major subclades that made it into Iberia in the beaker era? I tend to think DF27 got its hands on the already active Iberia-SE France route at the France end i.e the Rhone. They could then have followed the pre-existing Iberian type beaker route back into Iberia. If a group used the Rhone then my guess is they originated in the middle stretch of the Rhine. If you look at the earliest road network we have knowledge of - the Roman one - then a route for DF27 coming from the middle Rhine to the Rhone, along the Med. to Iberia looks most likely. This is different from the later beaker group who took Sion. If you look at the Roman routes into Sion a route from Bavaria using the upper Rhine makes great sense. They seem likely to have been U152. However, if you use the same method to work out the direction the P312 beaker folk might have made it to the Rhone, then IMO it points to the middle Rhine area. That might have been their location c. 2500BC before a move towards Iberia.
    Determining that L21 was not early (Early Bronze Age) to the Iberian Peninsula was never much in doubt that I could see. The early branching of L21 all hangs out in the British Isles and NW Europe.

    Here is a good example of what L21 looks like in Iberia.
    R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > ZZ10 > Z253 > Z2534 > ZZ5 > Z2187 > Z2201
    https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.ph...180&star=false

    McDonald estimates Z2201 at about 2600 ybp. It's parent, Z2187 is about 3200 ybp so the Iberian side of this did not really expand until 1500-500 BC. This sits in line with the Atlantic Bronze Age trade network. Don't forget that Z253 subclade of L21 has L226 too (Irish III) of Munster. L21 along the Pyrenees smacks of the Ancient Tin Trail.

    R-P312/S116 > Z290 > L21/S145 > DF13 > Z251 has a couple of branches that have Portuguese people but they too did NOT seem to expand in the Early Bronze Age.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 03-15-2019 at 11:43 PM.

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  9. #75
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    Lemercier discussing links between the secondary phase of the southern French and Iberian beaker groups states that 'the decorated pottery of the Rhodano-Provencal group clearly exhibiting resemblances with the Spanish Ciempozuelos group'. I think he was looking from a French perspective and seeing the direction of influence as Iberia to France. But perhaps its the other way around?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
    Sampling the territory of the present day Basque autonomous community to know about the origin of the Basques makes as much sense as sampling Iron Age Norfolk to learn about the Angles. I think most of the answers to our questions will only come from Gascony. The French Basque country would be a start.
    Except that I believe most scholars regard the Vascones of that area as ancestors of the Basques, but, frankly, I would be thrilled if the Basques came up for discussion far less than they do. They get way too much emphasis, IMHO.
     


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  13. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
    Sampling the territory of the present day Basque autonomous community to know about the origin of the Basques makes as much sense as sampling Iron Age Norfolk to learn about the Angles. I think most of the answers to our questions will only come from Gascony. The French Basque country would be a start.
    Whether the most well known Basque cluster was even in Spain at the time is up for debate. M153 dates to the Middle-Late Bronze Age and could just have easily been an Aquitanian marker. Without an equivalent amount of data in France, we still have many unanswered questions.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Whether the most well known Basque cluster was even in Spain at the time is up for debate. M153 dates to the Middle-Late Bronze Age and could just have easily been an Aquitanian marker. Without an equivalent amount of data in France, we still have many unanswered questions.
    Yeah, but that Basque marker arrived with steppe derived men, and the original Basques were not steppe derived. They were a Neolithic farmer population, apparently mostly if not entirely I2a.
     


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    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

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    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  17. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    So, I gather this paper confirms that beaker brought DF27 to Iberia with no U152 or L21. Once thing clear about beaker P312 main subclade divisions is they were apparent from the start. So the very geographically pronounced differences are due to founder effects, not bottlenecks. P312 seems to have had a tendency to founder effects. Founder effects imply either very small splinter clans settling these areas or that geographical patterning had already formed on the continent by 2450BC - i.e. DF27 ruled the roost on some crucial route to Iberia and L21 ruled some crucial crossing to the isles. If the latter was true then L21 must have dominated the channel crossing zone between the Rhine and Calais but what about DF27? What pre-Iberia position was it in that made it the one of the three major subclades that made it into Iberia in the beaker era? I tend to think DF27 got its hands on the already active Iberia-SE France route at the France end i.e the Rhone. They could then have followed the pre-existing Iberian type beaker route back into Iberia. If a group used the Rhone then my guess is they originated in the middle stretch of the Rhine. If you look at the earliest road network we have knowledge of - the Roman one - then a route for DF27 coming from the middle Rhine to the Rhone, along the Med. to Iberia looks most likely. This is different from the later beaker group who took Sion. If you look at the Roman routes into Sion a route from Bavaria using the upper Rhine makes great sense. They seem likely to have been U152. However, if you use the same method to work out the direction the P312 beaker folk might have made it to the Rhone, then IMO it points to the middle Rhine area. That might have been their location c. 2500BC before a move towards Iberia.
    The path would likely have been through the Rhone-Rhine group shown in light gray on page 13 of Lemercier's map:

    https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/...87744/document
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  19. #80
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    You are of course correct I did mean Gimbutas and spell check did not correct me.
    Jean did not criticise her at all.

    I am pleased to see that other sources are available and thank you all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Do you mean Gimbutas?

    Was Jean speaking ex cathedra when she told you that?

    I doubt that she would have said that Gimbutas was not respectable.

    Unfortunately I don't recall the other sources in which I have seen that information, and it has been some years since I read it. I wish I had made a note of them.

    However, the pre-Christian Basque worship of the mother goddess Mari was central to their religion and is fairly well known, so matrilocality is likely. At the very least the Basques do not appear to have been a patriarchal people. Besides, we know now that prior to the advent of steppe derived people, there was no R1b-M269 and steppe dna in the Basque country.

    So, how do you account for the near total replacement of I2a among the Basques and the introduction of steppe dna while the Basques were simultaneously managing to preserve their non-Indo-European speech?
    Image “Westray wifie” replica of Neolithic figurine Hidden Content
    Out of 64 pre 1800 births 45% Cheshire, 1% Irish (or Scottish), 25% south Derbyshire, 13% Burton on Trent area (where 4 counties within 10 miles), 7% Shropshire, 1% Staffs, 8% Lancs. So far all British Isles despite what some testing companies say.

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