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Thread: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    This can go one of two ways. Either the lingusitics didn't shift in Iberia from the Neo/CA when the genome was replaced by 40%, or someone would need to prove that Iberian related languages were spoken deep within Germany around 2500 BC, and was brought by the ~90% (my guess) or so male replacement. (100% replacement in sample)
    My opinion is that those RM269 brought Lusitanian and/or something very close. However the language shift didn't necessarily always happened and some group of populations kept speaking Neolithic languages : in fact Iberian and Basque/Vasconic are related but in the distant run.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Or by the Iron Age IE people with steppe dna had married into non-IE cultures that managed to hang onto their non-IE languages. That sort of thing isn't unheard of. Lots of IE-speaking people were absorbed by the Turks, for example.
    The study suggests that by 2000 BC the groups were mixed, but there was only ever 40% replacement, and the mtDNA demonstrated continuity. However, in the British Isles and Ireland, my understanding was that there was not much mtDNA continuity, which suggests that men and women both moved to the islands and likely spoke the same language. This could be the main difference between the migration scenarios, since there is little to no evidence of non-IE language in the British Isles and Ireland. To me, this is the key difference between the two scenarios, and why non-IE languages remained until the Roman period.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    The study suggests that by 2000 BC the groups were mixed, but there was only ever 40% replacement, and the mtDNA demonstrated continuity. However, in the British Isles and Ireland, my understanding was that there was not much mtDNA continuity, which suggests that men and women both moved to the islands and likely spoke the same language. This could be the main difference between the migration scenarios, since there is little to no evidence of non-IE language in the British Isles and Ireland. To me, this is the key difference between the two scenarios, and why non-IE languages remained until the Roman period.
    Right, and if the non-IE cultures had matrilocal marriage traditions, as the Basques evidently did, in which the groom goes to live with bride's family, that would introduce steppe y-dna and autosomal dna while preserving the bride's non-IE language.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-15-2019 at 12:52 AM.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

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    Good articles.

    In the article: Survival of Late Pleistocene Hunter-Gatherer Ancestry in the Iberian Peninsula
    Dual hunter-gatherer ancestry is the result of admixture from different refugia(...)Here, Iberian HG Canes 1 and La Braña 1 share more Villabruna-like ancestry while El Mirón, Moita do Sebastião, and Chan share more Goyet Q-2-like ancestry.
    Probably the Atlantic-Iberian Refugium and the Mediterranean-Italian Refugium

    In the article - The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years - I missed Atlantic-Western Iberian individuals. Let's wait more results.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal

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  9. #15
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    Troisième caverne of Goyet cave Goyet Q-2 Goyet Q-2 GrA-46168 12650 ± 50 13,283-12,829 15,232-14,778 Reported in Fu et al (1) Upper Paleolithic/ Magdalenian
    Do not understand why didn't they try to get a more accurate info on terminal happlogroup for Goyet Q-2.
    Anyway they made a new analysis to get more accurate DNA data.
    Fu et al only tells us that Goyet Q-2 is HIJK - not so much information.

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  11. #16
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    The Copper Age North African isn't E-L19 but E-V68. E-V13 is nowhere to be found in the Greco-Roman period, but suddenly explodes in the Moorish period. It seems that E-V13 is one of the major Berber lineage. I wonder how Greeks and Albanians got their E-V13...

    It also appears that i was right and that Berber is rather related to E-M78 than E-L19. A North African origin of E-M183 is definitely dead.

    Edit: One E-M183 is 18% Levantine
    Last edited by Shamayim; 03-15-2019 at 02:19 AM.

  12. #17
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    on supp p98 tableS14 they show that the steppe-related ancestry(germany beaker) in BA samples was more prominent on the autosomes than on the x-chr which would indicate a heavier paternal source rather than maternal;
    Geno2.0NG 51%SEurope 19%WCEurope 13%Scandinavia 5%AsiaMinor 4%EEurope 4%GB&Ireland 3%Arabia myOrigins 52%WCEurope 40%SEEurope 5%BritishIsles 3%WMiddleEast DNA.Land 49%NWEuropean 27%SEuropean 13%MedIslander 11%Sardinian myHeritage 51.8%NWEuropean 33.2%Italian 7.9%Greek 7.1%Balkan gencove 29%NItaly 19%EMed 15%NBritishIsles 12%SWEurope 10%NCEurope 9%Scandinavia 6%NEEurope GenePlazaK29 54.4%NWEurope 37.6%GreekAlbania 5.6%WAsian 2.4%SWAsia

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  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeanL View Post
    Individuals from the heartland of the Basque Region:

    I11249 U5b1 I2a2a2 N_Iberia_MLN N 3400–3000 BCE Jentillarri, Enirio-Aralar, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country I7605 H3 I2a2a N_Iberia_MLN N 3500–2900 BCE Mandubi Zelaia, Ezkio-Itsaso, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country
    I7603 K1a2b I2a2a N_Iberia_MLN N 3500–2900 BCE Mandubi Zelaia, Ezkio-Itsaso, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country
    I7602 J1c1 I2a2a2a N_Iberia_MLN N 3500–2900 BCE Mandubi Zelaia, Ezkio-Itsaso, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country
    I7604 H1ak I2a2a2a N_Iberia_MLN N 3500–2900 BCE Mandubi Zelaia, Ezkio-Itsaso, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country
    I7606 U5b1+16189+@16192 I2a2a2 N_Iberia_MLN N 3500–2900 BCE Mandubi Zelaia, Ezkio-Itsaso, Gipuzkoa, Basque Country
    Is there at least some minor presence of I2-Y6098 among Basque? Looks like all those I2-Y6098 lines are very rare now and they are indeed extinct in Basque Region (although there is one sample on Y-full from South Spain).
    Last edited by artemv; 03-15-2019 at 03:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Right, and if the non-IE cultures had matrilocal marriage traditions, as the Basques evidently did, in which the groom goes to live with bride's family, that would introduce steppe y-dna and autosomal dna while preserving the bride's non-IE language.
    At the first sight sounds reasonable, but in case of matrilocality we would probably get mostly the same mt-DNA from females of the same site and the same radiocarbon date for middle neolithic period. But I do not see this in the data.
    I can also see that males from the same site in Bronze Age have the same Y-DNA, but females from the same site have different mt-DNA.

    Matrilocality means that both local males and migrant males would often move to the same community after marriage. How could it happen that close to 100% of local Y-chromosomes were replaced in this case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Is there at least some minor presence of I2-Y6098 among Basque? Looks like all those I2-Y6098 lines are very rare now and they are indeed extinct in Basque Region (although there is one sample on Y-full from South Spain).
    Modern Basques need not descend from IA Iberians from the same area, they could be originally from the Pyrenees or even Iparralde
    YDNA - E-Y31991>PF4428>BY36857. Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1680 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal
    mtDNA - H20. Maria Josefa de Almeida, b. circa 1750 Hidden Content , Porto, Portugal

    Global25 PCA West Eurasia dataset Hidden Content
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    [1] "distance%=1.7726"

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