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Thread: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years

  1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    No, only in a secondary time, when Franks realm was extended to Central Gaul and kings converted to Christianism. Where they settled at first, they mostly imposed their language. It became the various Franconian languages and dialects, divided in Low and High Franconian. The best known is Dutch/Flemish.

    Low Franconian:
    Attachment 29758
    High Franconian:
    Attachment 29759
    its original area was wider:
    Attachment 29760

    This map is not really accurate, since in Boulonnais, the language was a Saxon dialect (not derived from Franks, but from Anglo-saxons settlers):
    Attachment 29761
    Hence the traditional use of clinker built ships in Boulonnais, called "Flobart" (a variation of the boats used by Anglo-saxons and Vikings):
    Attachment 29762

    This is therefore rather clear that migration of Franks, Saxons and other germanic peoples, when massive, changed the language in the settlement areas. Even in Burgundy, toponymy is showing presence for a time of a germanic language (names in -ans). But germanic presence was not massive enough and as in Normandy, Romance dialects imposed themselves shortly. Probably in relation to Church.
    That was my whole point of starting this slight off topic discussion. Language is funny and doesn't behave by any general rules. So we have DF27 in areas of Iberia where a proto-celtic/italic or neither or both in the case of Lusitanian was spoken. We have DF27 in areas where today Vasconic is spoken, but there is quite a bit of evidence that originally in this area of Spain lived Iron Age Celts, Belgic tribes, and the case of the Varduli and associated tribes another possible pre/proto Celtic people. We have DF27 in areas where Iberian was spoken at one time. We have aDna starting after 2000 BCE that is primarily DF27 shifting from I, which corresponds pretty well with the entry of Beaker into Iberia. Of the three language possibilities, the pre/proto Celtic/Italic or neither Celtic/Italic seems the most likely as the original language of the incoming DF27 Beaker people. In fact it makes the most sense if we assume L21=Insular Celtic and U152= Italic.

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  3. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    According to Schrijvers French is basically Latin in the mouth of a proto-dutch speaker
    I will record my son of 14 speaking Latin (learns it at school), who knows it’s tres belle

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  5. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I will record my son of 14 speaking Latin (learns it at school), who knows it’s tres belle
    Can your son speak pig Latin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kopfjäger View Post
    Can your son speak pig Latin?
    My sister and and some of her friends started conversing in this when we were children. I told my daughters about it who quizzed her and then picked it up very quickly, much to the annoyance of my boys : )

    I'm still none the wiser : ))))

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  9. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    My sister and and some of her friends started conversing in this when we were children. I told my daughters about it who quizzed her and then picked it up very quickly, much to the annoyance of my boys : )

    I'm still none the wiser : ))))
    When I was in grammar school there were girls who used Pig Latin all the time for fun. I never understood the attraction.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-L21> DF13> Z39589> DF41> FGC5572> BY168> BY166> FT37605> FGC36974> FGC36982> FGC36981

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    When I was in grammar school there were girls who used Pig Latin all the time for fun. I never understood the attraction.
    Ortunatelyfay , obodynay ashay etyay oughtthay otay useyay igpay atinlay onyay ethay orumfay...
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  13. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    I don’t know if you remember or not, but Jean M., very early on associated L165 being carried by the MacDonalds of Caithness, the MacLeods, and the MacNeils of Barra, as an indicator of a Norwegian male progenitor in these families. I vehemently argued with her about this, asking her to wait for more evidence. This find in Spain, I think, should give a lot of doubt to the Norwegian origin of L165 in Western Scotland.
    Taking a second look at this file (and others) and I8206 is negative for upstream Z195. Combined with the call at 25934325, it is likely that the L165 is due to damage.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Taking a second look at this file (and others) and I8206 is negative for upstream Z195. Combined with the call at 25934325, it is likely that the L165 is due to damage.
    Well that bites.

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  17. #689
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    Sample I3323 is from the non-IE Iberian Culture site of Ullastret.

    Iberia_East_IA:I3323
    [1] "distance%=2.897"

    Iberia_BA,69.9
    Hallstatt_Bylany,17.5
    Minoan_Lasithi,12.6
    Iberomaurusian,0

    Anyone get a better fit? What does it mean, if anything? The caution is that the samples from this site are thought to have been war trophies for the cremation practicing tribes of the area. Then again, it didn't stop the Olalde from using it to propose linguistic implications.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  19. #690
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Sample I3323 is from the non-IE Iberian Culture site of Ullastret.

    Iberia_East_IA:I3323
    [1] "distance%=2.897"

    Iberia_BA,69.9
    Hallstatt_Bylany,17.5
    Minoan_Lasithi,12.6
    Iberomaurusian,0

    Anyone get a better fit? What does it mean, if anything? The caution is that the samples from this site are thought to have been war trophies for the cremation practicing tribes of the area. Then again, it didn't stop the Olalde from using it to propose linguistic implications.
    Without going back and looking, did I3323 have a Ydna call?

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